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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    Sorry I did not put it in my post, but I am VERY much on the side of strength. I just don't think that two, three even five seconds makes that much difference in cutting a post. I know it can add up, that is the arguement I am getting from four on our committee. My point is that it will take a lot longer to go to plan B when you find something you can't cut, not to mention the time you spent trying to make the cut.
    I think the smaller cutters are fine for engines that have rescues backing them up, but a rescue should have the biggest available.



    I am hoping to show them the responses to this next week so that some other opinions can be injected, instead of a bunch of egos arguing in a room.

    You want speed get a PTO hydrulic installed on truck and quit with the little portable pumps.

    At a local Amkus demo last night and wasn't anything their 24 cutter couldn't handle. 80s Caprice & late model GM - Steering col/A post/B post/Door beam.

    Didn't even get out their new big gun - AMK22.


  2. #22
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    What are we going to do when tools are back to 78 lbs again? In order to get the higher cutting forces, manufacturers are moving towards bigger pistons and heavier tools. TNT has a cutter that boast over 300,000 lbs of cutting force, but I can testify that I've this cutter will not cut every car on the street today. What happen? Either it's not doing 300,000 or tomorrows cars means we're going to lose in the end with new car technology

  3. #23

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    In our company we had a couple of factors to consider when we replaced/upgraded our tools; capability vs price, and need. We had a single unit combi setup from Hurst that was about 10 years old. We don't get many wrecks and generally just have to pop a door. Around us, we have 2 volunteer companies with huge heavy rescues with tons of tools and a paid department that runs 9000 calls also with tons of tools that can be there in 2 minutes. We felt we didn't need the heaviest tools with the highest cutting and spreading because our mutual aid can do that if needed. We purchased a Holmatro CORE setup with a 4050NCT cutter, 4240 spreader, and 4350 ram. Most of these are Holmatro's midrange tools as far as capability and weight. We had our first demo tonight. I was really impressed with the cutter in that it cut the door hinge in 1 shot. Since I am only used to the combi with lower ratings, these tools seem like power houses. But if I were you and you were the only game in town, you need to have the capability to handle the jobs, so you should look at the better tools with higher capabilities, don't put too much on speed.

  4. #24
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    You want speed get a PTO hydrulic installed on truck and quit with the little portable pumps.

    At a local Amkus demo last night and wasn't anything their 24 cutter couldn't handle. 80s Caprice & late model GM - Steering col/A post/B post/Door beam.

    Didn't even get out their new big gun - AMK22.
    Try a CHALLENGE. You CAN cut ANYTHING GM from 1980 to now with a HACKSAW. If you want to test HYDRAULIC rescue tools,try a Subaru,Volvo,'Benz or something that has a few reinforcements in it. A GM offers ZERO challenge to almost anybodies HRT. And YES,a Subaru B post will most certainly give a standard Amkus cutter a trial. T.C.

  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Here's some cutter 'food for thought' to consider in this discussion.

    I have completed my nearly year-long research project into just what these Advanced Steels are, where they are, and what challenges they present to us in vehicle rescue. This info became the heart of the 5-part University of Extrication series published in Firehouse Magazine May through September '09.

    I tested a multitude of diferent manufacturer's cutters on Hot-stamped Boron steel found in one or two-year old vehicles that I acquired for the testing. hre's one interesting point; No combination cutter out there could cut through the B-pillar.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  6. #26
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Ron,are you referring to a Combi-tool cutter when you say combi cutter? I ask because I cut a Subaru B the other night with our FX4 Resqtek,which amazed even our Resqtek regional rep who didn't think it would do it either.And this IS a Boron reinforced B. He has pictures to prove it. T.C.

  7. #27
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
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    I haven't seen all of the articles, so I am curious if there is a tool-by-tool list of what brands and models were tested and the results for each on. I did see a B.E.A.S.T. in a picture from an article I did see, was that one of the "combo" tools, or was that a different "animal" (pun kind of intended)?
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  8. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Rescue101:

    Glad you made it through the B-pillar on a Subaru with a combination cutter/spreader tool. One thing to note; Subaru does NOT use the principle of advanced steel. They instead adopted the design philosophy of MORE steel. Multiple layers but NO advanced steel at this point in time.

    The combi cutter you did the demo with was apparently able to cut through what could have been up to seven(7) layers of high-strength, low-alloy steel plus possibly a mild steel 3/8-inch diameter rebar section depending upon where you made your cuts. The top of the B-pillar has no rebar and less layers. The shoulder height area has possibly seven layers plus one or even two rebars.

    Do not be deceived or thrown off by your success. NO standard combination cutter tool I tried was able to cut the real stuff; the advanced steels such as Boron. I just don't want you to think that a combi is going to get you through all your future 'tough cuts'. In my opinion, it won't regardless of brand, make, or model.

    If you're shooting a mosquito, take a fly swater.

    If you're shooting an elephant, take a shotgun.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  9. #29
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Ron,that's why I'm asking.This post has a reinforced post as you state WITH the Boron(or so I was told)C reinforcement.My query was also related to your use of the word Combi cutter.Which prompted my query on if you included/meant Combi TOOLS.The Combi is on the Ladder,we have a full set on the Engine.I DO NOT rely on a single tool for ANY purpose. BTW,I'm about to do some field trials with DIAMOND 'cip blades on the exotic steels and see how they work. I/we don't rely on one tool OR system to get the job done. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-16-2009 at 08:57 AM.

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Rescue101:

    To me, there are dedicated single-purpose cutters and there are combination cutters. A 'combi' as I use the term is one of the smaller cutter units that is most likely designed to be a little spreader as well as a little cutter; combination tool.

    I'm glad you have a dedicated cutter unit on the engine. The Truck's combi most likely won't make it as the advanced steels become more and more prevalent.

    There isn't any boron or any other type of advanced steel in any Subaru pillar, by the way.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  11. #31
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    I'm just going by what I was told. In any event, my old cutter(Holmatro 2000) WOULD NOT cut it. That's why I was pleasantly surprised when the FX4 did. I really wanted the FX6 but got outvoted by the Boss. You know how that works.The Combi for us is like a BACKUP tool,we don't First Due the Ladder for crashes,the Rescue Engine is First due to Mva's. The tools on the Engine are due to be replaced before December this year,so ALL of our tools will be new.The Holmatro's have served us very well,the build date on the tools is 1983.So it's time.Thanks for clarifying the Combi cutter,I THOUGHT that's what you meant but I wanted to be sure. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-17-2009 at 08:41 AM.

  12. #32

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    What website can I find the performance tests done on cutters?

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    The power cutter testing on Boron structural steel in late-model vehicles has been completed. I wrote a five-part article series on this research; May through September magazine issues.

    I did not publish the results for specific power rescue cutters tested; pass or fail.

    I can send specific information by email to anyone interested in how a specific brand or specific make or model performed.

    Rmoore@firehouse.com
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoore View Post
    Rescue101:

    Glad you made it through the B-pillar on a Subaru with a combination cutter/spreader tool. One thing to note; Subaru does NOT use the principle of advanced steel. They instead adopted the design philosophy of MORE steel. Multiple layers but NO advanced steel at this point in time.

    The combi cutter you did the demo with was apparently able to cut through what could have been up to seven(7) layers of high-strength, low-alloy steel plus possibly a mild steel 3/8-inch diameter rebar section depending upon where you made your cuts. The top of the B-pillar has no rebar and less layers. The shoulder height area has possibly seven layers plus one or even two rebars.

    Do not be deceived or thrown off by your success. NO standard combination cutter tool I tried was able to cut the real stuff; the advanced steels such as Boron. I just don't want you to think that a combi is going to get you through all your future 'tough cuts'. In my opinion, it won't regardless of brand, make, or model.

    If you're shooting a mosquito, take a fly swater.

    If you're shooting an elephant, take a shotgun.
    To prove your point even more just the other day working a MVA with mutual aid dept was trying to make a relief cut in a nissan sentra with a frontal hit. The entire a post below the windshield was in pieces and was attempting to just do a cut in the windshield section on the passengers side (no HS steel in the area) and the combi cutter just bounced around. When we got back I used our test gauges and the tool was within the 10,500 psi.

  15. #35
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoore View Post
    Rescue101:

    To me, there are dedicated single-purpose cutters and there are combination cutters. A 'combi' as I use the term is one of the smaller cutter units that is most likely designed to be a little spreader as well as a little cutter; combination tool.

    I'm glad you have a dedicated cutter unit on the engine. The Truck's combi most likely won't make it as the advanced steels become more and more prevalent.

    There isn't any boron or any other type of advanced steel in any Subaru pillar, by the way.

    So from that I take it that a tool that has a full cutter assembly on it is what you are calling a "Cutter", which would answer my question that you apparently missed?
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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