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    Default Stretch from the Rig or Use the Standpipe?

    For fires in buildings of 2-5 stories (low/mid-rise) equipped with standpipes, do you stretch from the rig or use the standpipe. How do factors such as staffing, location of stairwells, location and extent of fire etc factor into this decision?

    If you use the rig, do you stretch 2 1/2" all the time instead of using the standpipe or will it be based on the fire situation?

    Does the presence of sprinklers effect your decision, and more speifically is the decision different if its a 13 versus a 13R system?

    I'm looking at the issue of having enough hose on the rig to make the stretch versus having to use a standpipe and the pros/cons of each and where the line is drawn to make the decision. In this decision, also taking into account which line (1 3/4" vs 2 1/2" based on fire and regardless of standpipe).

    Thanks in advance.

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    We do both. Depends on the Lt, depends on the situation, fire conditions, ect. From my personal opinion it really all comes down to the apparatus placement/parking lot arrangement. We've found that if you can place your apparatus close enough, you can pull a 200' crosslay up pretty quick. If that won't make it, a few lengths of 2 1/2 and a 1.75 "high-rise pack" on the end can also go in service pretty quickly(or all 2.5) BUT if you can't get your apparatus close enough to the fire unit, then you'll wasting a lot of time making the stretch. IMO using the rig is the prefered method, when possible. Using a standpipe opens you up to possibility of failure of their system which may not have been operated in years. Possbile to have debris or stuck caps. The driver still has to connect to the FDC. Just extra steps and risks.

    We did some training on this last year and found that we were a little rusty on making a quick "standpipe" using the hose from the rig, but it gave us a good opportunity to try a few different methods. I reccomend finding a building and just doing a few different techniques of raising the hose and making the hook-up. Can do a few dry runs in no time flat. Time well spent.
    Last edited by imprezive; 06-12-2009 at 10:46 PM.

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    For fires in buildings of 2-5 stories (low/mid-rise) equipped with standpipes, do you stretch from the rig or use the standpipe. If on the 3rd floor or below i will almost alway stretch from the pumper How do factors such as staffing, location of stairwells, location and extent of fire etc factor into this decision? All these factors always matter ... you need men... at least 3 to make it up the stairs, we train with a 4 man company using an improvised minuteman from a flat load and found it to work well. We may stretch up the side through a window but have found it easier to use the stairs.

    If you use the rig, do you stretch 2 1/2" all the time instead of using the standpipe or will it be based on the fire situation? The 2 and a half is if it is other than residential for the vert stretch, if it is contained and is is residential we use 1 3/4"
    Does the presence of sprinklers effect your decision, and more speifically is the decision different if its a 13 versus a 13R system? Yes, if we are a 2 man company (medic is out on a call) we'll hit the FDC first otherwise we have the 2nd due get the FDC and we focus on the stretch. A 13 system is for any multifamiley and commercial, 13 R is SFD residential and we don't account for them, 13R's are to only prevent flashover and we have no control over them (no FDC)
    I'm looking at the issue of having enough hose on the rig to make the stretch versus having to use a standpipe and the pros/cons of each and where the line is drawn to make the decision. In this decision, also taking into account which line (1 3/4" vs 2 1/2" based on fire and regardless of standpipe). We don't stretch more than 300 feet of 1 3/4" as a rule, if it is longer than that it is filled with 2 & 1/2" the wyed. I don't feel that the "quick hit" idea holds weight when discussing small vs. big handlines... each fire needs gpm (rate of delievery) to be controlled/extinguished regardless of manpower. We pair companies up, this is usally 1 company that makes the initial stretch then has a second company fill in on the corners and such as they arrive. If on an standpipe, it gets a 2.5" , it maybe that the back up is 2.5" and initial is 1 3/4" but for me and my crew we stretch the 2.5" until the fire is out and then we overhaul with 1 3/4" . For the hose, bundle it up and shove it somewhere easily accessible on the rig such as a side compartment or in the hosebed... 2 x 100 feet bundles and a bag with the tools and chocks (both 2.5" and 1.75")
    Thanks in advance.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    About 2 weeks ago, We stretched hose up to the tenth floor in a hotel downtown, trough the staircase straight from the engines. We almost always run hose straight from the engines, hosereels and wet standpipes are good tools for people on site to make a first attempt to stop the fire in an early stage though; upsized fire extinguishers

    And here is why it works to go ten floors up from the engine:
    Since pressure drops only 0.01 MPa per metre of elevation, if 15 bar (362.6 psi) is produced at the pump, it can push water up 150 metres. (492.1 feet). Counting in hose resistance and the pressure wanted at the nozzle (6 bar), you can still climb something like 70 metres (328.1 feet) with 38 mm (1.5") hose. All of the city engines has the Esteri D-240, they can pump above 15 bar.

    I have never used a wet standpipe in a real situation. For training exercise, we used ones in a power plant (would have been a mess to haul house all the way up), but that was also boosted by a pump and we used a 2" wildland nozzle at the end of the hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    Does the presence of sprinklers effect your decision, and more speifically is the decision different if its a 13 versus a 13R system? Yes, if we are a 2 man company (medic is out on a call) we'll hit the FDC first otherwise we have the 2nd due get the FDC and we focus on the stretch. A 13 system is for any multifamiley and commercial, 13 R is SFD residential and we don't account for them, 13R's are to only prevent flashover and we have no control over them (no FDC)
    NFPA 13R sprinkler systems are not to prevent flashover only. They are designed to protect a means of egress for the occupants. Most of the time they are installed to allow for an exception to the building code (usually inadequate egress size, local versus general fire alarm system only, etc...)

    NFPA 13R covers multi-family dwellings up to four stories.

    NFPA 13D is the one you are referring to when you state there is no outside FDC. (13D is for SFD or duplex residential buildings.)

    Just because it is a SFD does not mean it does not have a full 13 system installed.

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    Another option to think about in the low rise situations is using an aerial as an external standpipe and attaching a hose to the tip. Some trucks even have designated standpipe outlets on them in addition to the master stream(s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDAO10 View Post
    Another option to think about in the low rise situations is using an aerial as an external standpipe and attaching a hose to the tip. Some trucks even have designated standpipe outlets on them in addition to the master stream(s).
    Aerial standpipe ops are low on our list. We've even trained to do it and found that is is more problematic (we have 105' stick) than it was worth. The biggest draw back is that the aerial is tied up and can not be used for rescue.

    If we had 4 aerials showing up in the first 10 minutes we may consider it more.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    NFPA 13R covers multi-family dwellings up to four stories.

    NFPA 13D is the one you are referring to when you state there is no outside FDC. (13D is for SFD or duplex residential buildings.)
    Sorry , got them turned around
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bum291 View Post
    About 2 weeks ago, We stretched hose up to the tenth floor in a hotel downtown, trough the staircase straight from the engines. We almost always run hose straight from the engines, hosereels and wet standpipes are good tools for people on site to make a first attempt to stop the fire in an early stage though; upsized fire extinguishers

    I have never used a wet standpipe in a real situation. For training exercise, we used ones in a power plant (would have been a mess to haul house all the way up), but that was also boosted by a pump and we used a 2" wildland nozzle at the end of the hose.
    I think you are sorely mistaken about the use of standpipes

    But since you clearly state that you have never used one in a "real situation", the source of your misconceptions regarding their use are clear.

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    if we can easily get to the fire area, we'd probably stretch from the rig for the first and second floor. The third floor I'd lean more towards the stand pipe. It's a longer stretch unless the stairs are right in front of us, working off the stand pipe would be much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDAO10 View Post
    Another option to think about in the low rise situations is using an aerial as an external standpipe and attaching a hose to the tip. Some trucks even have designated standpipe outlets on them in addition to the master stream(s).

    $750,000 exterior standpipe?

    Rope and muscles are a lot cheaper and dont waste a valuable life saving tool.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I think you are sorely mistaken about the use of standpipes

    But since you clearly state that you have never used one in a "real situation", the source of your misconceptions regarding their use are clear.
    Please explain yourself. The reason I haven't used standpipes very much is cause we don't use them very much at all. We generally run from the engines, even up the floors. To demonstrate my point, I took a photo from one of the instruction manuals, lay hose along the stairs or straight trough the shaft as many floors as needed/possible.

    I admit that I might be sorely mistaken: We make a difference between wet standpipes (connected to a water source) and dry standpipes (pumped from the engine). If one or both are in existence, it's up to commander in charge to decide depending on the situation, we usually run from the engine, then we know what we have and broken standpipes will not cause problems or danger.
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    10 floors up is a very long stretch, not to mention that it takes up room on an already congested stair way.


    Granted standpipes do have their issues, but if you can't trust them enough to use them, why have the builder waste money installing them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bum291 View Post
    Please explain yourself. The reason I haven't used standpipes very much is cause we don't use them very much at all. We generally run from the engines, even up the floors. To demonstrate my point, I took a photo from one of the instruction manuals, lay hose along the stairs or straight trough the shaft as many floors as needed/possible.

    I admit that I might be sorely mistaken: We make a difference between wet standpipes (connected to a water source) and dry standpipes (pumped from the engine). If one or both are in existence, it's up to commander in charge to decide depending on the situation, we usually run from the engine, then we know what we have and broken standpipes will not cause problems or danger.

    I am familiar with what you are suggesting. I just can't see the practicality in that at all.

    You are stetching up 10 flights of stairs. That takes up a ridiculous amount of hose, hose that you are ultimately pulling againts to advance the line. Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to pull 10 stories of charged line to advance into the apartment?

    You are making a significant number of turns, some of them almost 90 degree turns depending on the stairwell layout. Each turn is a potential kink which is a potential water loss that will not be easily correctable considering you have 10 floors of hose stretched in which to find the kink and correct it.

    Who is flaking out all of that hose? And who exactly is retracing 10 floors of stetched hose to correct a problem such as a burst length or a coupling stuck against a railing?

    Could a standpipe fail? I guess it could.

    In which case you would have to problem solve ONE system with the components of that system right in front of you ( i.e. the FDC or the standpipe outlet).

    By stretching a line up 10 flights of stairs you are creating the very real potential for significant operational difficulties, not to mention the significant delay in getting water on the fire and firefighter fatigue long before the line is even charged.

    I just can't see any justification for doing what you are suggesting. And I am sure I am not alone.

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    Is there a cutoff point in NYC as to this decision or is it up to each engine officer?

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    In our department it is left up to the Engine officer or the first arriving chief to determine whether we will streach from the rig or the standpipe. As a rule of thumb we will streach off of the rig for anything 3 floors or less, but this is not a hard and fast rule, we recently had a reported fire on the number two floor with smoke showing and we streached off of the standpipe and I found that we had water in about the same amount of time it would have taken to streach from the pump. On a side note if we are streaching off of a standpipe we are almost always using 2 1/2" smooth bore becuase of the potential for rapid developement and spread of fire. Look at most LODD's or close calls from mid/high rise fires, even garden apartments, in most cases the fire extended into the common hallway and the fire load was to great for the lines streached...maybe it is just me, but knowing that a backup line is not going to be streached as quickly off a standpipe as a pump(needing to steach from another standpipe or lower floor) I want the GPM to protect myself.

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    I have seldom used a standpipe system, simply because we don't seem to have many fires in buildings equipped with standpipes. We have alot of these buildings in town, just not a lot of fires in those buildings. I have used the exterior hose stretch a number of times, when faced with the old buildings that do not have the standpipes. The key to the exterior hose stretch is training. It really is quite simple, and efficient, but like everything else, you need to train. I definately don't believe that it is the cureall for every above grade fire however.
    I would have to agree on the issue of using an aerial as a standpipe. To me, it really does not make a great deal of sense to tie up one of the more limited pieces of firefighting and rescue equipment we have on the fire ground just to attach a hose to it. Several reasons, first, how many trucks are on your fireground? Even if you have 5 trucks in staging, will they be able to get close enough to the building to use their aerials for rescue if that first truck is being tied up as an exterior standpipe? The list goes on, but these are two of the more obvious scenarios. Just my humble opinion however.
    As with anything on the fire ground, be mobile, flexible, and keep digging for that "special" tool that is in your box somewhere. Ingenuity is sometimes the best tool we have.

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    You are stetching up 10 flights of stairs. That takes up a ridiculous amount of hose, hose that you are ultimately pulling againts to advance the line. Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to pull 10 stories of charged line to advance into the apartment?
    Um, we don't charge the hose at bottom floor and then move up. THAT would be very impractical, we move up with empty hose and charge the line outside the door, one floor below or what ever the situation requires, with enough hose to spare up with us, rather than pulling a charged hose from many stairs below. We use quick twist couplings; pictures and video links below.

    Batallion or whoever is placed in charge makes the desicion. Reasons have been stated already. No risk that our packs get caught on a corner. We carry our hose in these: http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/p...7052009001.jpg
    And regarding it being heavy to carry up the stairs; sure, but a part of the anual physical fitness test that validates people to use SCBA inside buildings is to carry two of those up and down a bunch of stairs. Can't do it - don't do it.

    I have no footage of our hotell, but I do have these:
    http://www.breakingnews.fi/preview/pasila_270408.htm http://www.breakingnews.fi/preview/vantaa_260408.htm
    Both videos are at the packing up stage, pretty small fires where the whole thing was done with a single line. The second clip shows that the hose was pulled up straight trough the shaft rather than trough the stairs.

    And to finnish off, a picture where an additional line is pulled up with a rope. This was not the first line however. Probably no standpipes in the building.
    http://ron.1g.fi/kuvat/PiiPaa/keikka...1-DSC_5423.jpg We pretty much never use the aerials as standpipes, they are usually needed for evacuation and then for ventilation.

    Do I need to actually film how we lay hose out for you to get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bum291 View Post
    Um, we don't charge the hose at bottom floor and then move up. THAT would be very impractical, we move up with empty hose and charge the line outside the door, one floor below or what ever the situation requires, with enough hose to spare up with us, rather than pulling a charged hose from many stairs below. We use quick twist couplings; pictures and video links below.

    Batallion or whoever is placed in charge makes the desicion. Reasons have been stated already. No risk that our packs get caught on a corner. We carry our hose in these: http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/p...7052009001.jpg
    And regarding it being heavy to carry up the stairs; sure, but a part of the anual physical fitness test that validates people to use SCBA inside buildings is to carry two of those up and down a bunch of stairs. Can't do it - don't do it.

    I have no footage of our hotell, but I do have these:
    http://www.breakingnews.fi/preview/pasila_270408.htm http://www.breakingnews.fi/preview/vantaa_260408.htm
    Both videos are at the packing up stage, pretty small fires where the whole thing was done with a single line. The second clip shows that the hose was pulled up straight trough the shaft rather than trough the stairs.

    And to finnish off, a picture where an additional line is pulled up with a rope. This was not the first line however. Probably no standpipes in the building.
    http://ron.1g.fi/kuvat/PiiPaa/keikka...1-DSC_5423.jpg We pretty much never use the aerials as standpipes, they are usually needed for evacuation and then for ventilation.

    Do I need to actually film how we lay hose out for you to get it?
    Remember when talking to Bum291, his profile indicates that he is a Finnish firefighter. Most likely there is differences in construction and code between their standpipes and US standpipes. There maybe a very good reason they do not use standpipes for fire operations over there that is being lost in the translation

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    Our rigs carry a 200ft 3in leader line which has a gated wye at the end. If need be we can stretch that and connect our 150ft high-rise bag into it. As far as stretching a line or using a standpipe its the officer's discretion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post

    NFPA 13D is the one you are referring to when you state there is no outside FDC. (13D is for SFD or duplex residential buildings.)
    Many local AHJs have begun requiring FDCs (1 1/2 in.) on 13D systems as well. This only works on a dedicated sprinkler system, not one of those pex hybrid plumbing/fp designs. Nashville Metro and surrounding areas are among those requiring residential FDCs.

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    Interesting view on the use of aerials as standpipes. As a quint infested city we use ours as standpipes, only because they are tested, trained with and reliable. Also noted the age and condition of our standpipes is not known, unless the building is new (less than 5 years).

    To me using a 30+ year old standpipe and putting faith into it is much like using a 30+ year old pumper that has never been used. Can you really trust either?

    Now if they are tested then its a whole different story.

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    If the building has a standpipe, use it. It there to help deploy lines faster.

    As for using the stick as a standpipe,. I'm not a fan. If a dept is using the stick as a standpipe you limit it's operation to one function, appling water. Now the stick can't be used for possible rescue, or getting FF's to the roof, or if needed for a defensive operation.

    Be safe

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    I am amazed at how many fire departments don't drill on standpipe use.

    During a fire is too late. It can be a HUGE advantage to use the standpipe.

    We don't have any high rises, but we have 750,000 sq ft warehouses and a couple of multistory hotels (I think four stories).

    In another thread about parking garages, I mention that we use the stairwells in the parking garage to practice standpipe connections. We get permission and actually charge the standpipe at the street.

    Good drill for the guys and operators. Find a business and get permission after they close to use their vacant garage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post

    In another thread about parking garages, I mention that we use the stairwells in the parking garage to practice standpipe connections. We get permission and actually charge the standpipe at the street.

    Good drill for the guys and operators. Find a business and get permission after they close to use their vacant garage.

    .
    We do the same here. They parking garages are 5 stories and we get great drills done every year there. On the standpipe or from the rig... some of the best training according to my company members that we've ever done.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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