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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Default Smart Key... Smart Responder

    REceived a question from an instructor who teaches hybrid vehicle procedures to tow truck operators and firefighters. Question was;

    "Got a question in the class I did in CT. How do you determine a smart key/intelligent key from a regular key so I know which one to move 16 feet away? My answer to him was if you are not sure which is which, get it 16 feet away from the vehicle. So after that question, I may be changing my presentation to not single out the smart keys and intelligent keys..

    I'll make mention of them but the point I'll be making to the class from here on out will be if it's a hybrid / remove the key and keep it 16 feet or more away from the vehicle."

    The question is interesting so I am posting my reply to this query...
    ANSWER:
    I believe that first, the responder must be alert to the fact that such a thing as a Smart Key exists. They have to know what it does and how to work to shut down a vehicle with the Smart Key feature in operation.

    Secondly, to identify a standard ignition key vs a Smart Key, the responder should be aware that a Smart Key vehicle won't have a standard ignition key slot on the steering column like we have become accustomed to. They would instead find a push button of some sort with some type of words or label indicating how to start the vehicl. A responder to a Smart Key-equipped vehicle will encounter an instrument panel slot for inserting the key fob if it works like this.

    Thirdly, responder must be fully aware of the fact that Smart Key features are not just a hybrid thing. Nissan, Corvette, Cadillac, etc have this option on conventional gasoline engine vehicles.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com


  2. #2
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    Default Smart Keys

    Ron,
    I would also add that in addition to taking the key away from the vehicle turn off the iginition by pressing the button and confirming shutdown. Just taking the smart key away from the car without turning off the iginition will not shutdown the vehicle. Taking the key out of range prevents someone from accidently turning the car on.
    George

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    Default

    Ron, Due to the fact that the smart key technology uses a 12 volt computer system to operate, can I ask the question of why it matters to find the key fob and get it away from the vehicle if you just shut down the vehicle systems the proper way by the erg's does the system not then become mute?? A couple of statements as an instructor in vehicle technology myself. If you have a hybrid that is "Ready" you do not need a key fob to move it. I have driven a toyota away (2 miles) from the key fob. Turned around and drove back. Now, had I shut it down I would have not been able to get it to re enabled. Second isssue I see here is how do you find a key fob?? Is it in a purse, pocket ect?? Toyota has two positions that the vehicle could be in. Factory settings is to put the key in the slot to hold it on the dash. Customers can choose to select that it just has to be within 16 feet of the car. So again how would you find it easily?? Would it not be best to concern ourselves with just shutting down what it talks to here. The 12 volt computer system?? Respectfully, Alan

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    Default

    Let's not forget about the new "Smart Card" introduced by Lexus.....

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    Even the smart card transmitter technology must be recieved by something (computer). If we take that something away (powers and grounds, I.e. 12 battery) would that not totaly shut down these system and disable the engine from starting?? Alan

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    One more thing to keep in mind is that just because you take away 1 key or card or whatever doesn't mean that there isn't another one somewhere on one of the patients or somewhere in the vehicle. Basically, I would not rely on moving that 1 key or whatever away from the vehicle to disable it if that is indeed what you are talking about.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Default

    I believe that an important part of training responders to deal with Smart Keys or Smart Cards for any type of vehicle including hybrids, is for them to understand that at an emergency incident, all we really want to do is shut this thing down.

    Go through your department's protocols for shutting off and powering down the vehicle; that takes care of the gasoline engine and the 12v electrical system.

    Once you have accomplished that benchmark, the location of the Smart key or card unit isn't really relevant.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardoc View Post
    Ron, Due to the fact that the smart key technology uses a 12 volt computer system to operate, can I ask the question of why it matters to find the key fob and get it away from the vehicle if you just shut down the vehicle systems the proper way by the erg's does the system not then become mute?? A couple of statements as an instructor in vehicle technology myself. If you have a hybrid that is "Ready" you do not need a key fob to move it. I have driven a toyota away (2 miles) from the key fob. Turned around and drove back. Now, had I shut it down I would have not been able to get it to re enabled. Second isssue I see here is how do you find a key fob?? Is it in a purse, pocket ect?? Toyota has two positions that the vehicle could be in. Factory settings is to put the key in the slot to hold it on the dash. Customers can choose to select that it just has to be within 16 feet of the car. So again how would you find it easily?? Would it not be best to concern ourselves with just shutting down what it talks to here. The 12 volt computer system?? Respectfully, Alan
    FINALLY, we are beginning to think for ourselves and use our common sense. That is not meant in a derogatory way to the person who made this post. It is actually very refreshing, as are most of those that follow.

    It makes it very hard to make money coming up with things to write about and put together "classes", when guys in the field use common sense and don't try to over think things.

    I salute you!

  9. #9
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    I have always taught to remove the key/fob at least 25 feet from the vehicle the (average) smart key range is 16 feet thus giving us a margin of safety factor. But, like others have said this has nothing to do with shutting down the vehicle, this only prevents accidental restart.
    The main thing we need to teach responders is how to actually turn off the ignition and then disable the system.
    I was getting some pictures of a Lexus LS600h at a dealership about two weeks ago, I pushed the start button so I could get a picture of the dash and ready light, the engine started, the ready light came on and I suddenly realized that the salesman had the key in his hand and he was about 30 feet from the car. We kept backing him future away and trying it. At 90 feet which was as far as the fence would allow us to move the car still started. He said there must be a spare key in the car some were. Only problem is that if there were a key inside the car the doors would not lock and they did. My point is we do need to teach people to remove the key but, the main thing is to get the system disabled. This vehicle was sent to the service department to be fixed but, how many more are out there with the same problem?
    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
    Is it time to change our training yet ?

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    OK, sorry if this strays a little from the original post, but it's related to the 12volt system shut down. We've taken to disconnecting the 12 volt power at every accident via cutting or disconnection. Literally 30 minutes ago a PD Sgt. asked me why we do this and I explained the number of systems and devices that concerned us with regard to the well being of occupants, responders, PD and tow truck operators.

    It seems at a recent accident response programs at the State Police Academy, the instructor, a reconstructionist, told them to "fight the FD all you can to not disconnect the battery." He explained to them that the computer loses all data or resets when power is disconnected. This computer can tell them speed. braking, etc.

    This seems like a misconception to me, but I guess I've not specifically heard this said either way. It only makes sense with all the capacitors and internal batteries that the computer module would be designed to preserve all data without relying on the 12 volt system, which is so often destroyed. Is there any truth to this? Certain vehicles, not all? I need to nip this in the bud if it's not true before we begin to argue in the street over this. I guess I don't care about the PD concern vs. our safety issues, but I'd rather not have to explain this at the scene.

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    Smile

    The automotive computers are made to retain PROM (programable read only memory) when the computers are disconnected form electrical power.. This information is the software that makes the computer work. Rom (read only memory) is the information the computer has learned and will dump and need to relearn when power or ground is disrupted. OK here it is, What is more important prosecution or saftey?? The data this Instructor speaks of is not on all vehicles. So are we supposed to stop protection ourselves and others just cause they would like help making cases on a few vehicles. I suppose I should stop smoking the cigar I am smoking now to help them clean up the air too I would say it is time someone educate themselves with this instructor to let him know what he is really asking us to do. Good Luck. Alan

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    About a year or so ago, our Rescue was called down to the State Police impound yard. The Troopers needed help retrieving the computer from a wrecked car that had been involved in a fatal crash. This car had been sitting in the lot, without a battery, for 3 or 4 weeks. The data on the computer was still intact.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15 View Post
    About a year or so ago, our Rescue was called down to the State Police impound yard. The Troopers needed help retrieving the computer from a wrecked car that had been involved in a fatal crash. This car had been sitting in the lot, without a battery, for 3 or 4 weeks. The data on the computer was still intact.
    There is always ECU stored information that a car will maintain, such as engines settings (MAF/MAP), so it is always a possibility that this data will be retained the same way. I think this may end up being model specific that will have to come from the manufacturers, but it seems like common sense on the part of the manufacturer to ensure this data is preservered after loss of power.

    Someone will have to test and publish this to effectively dispute or validate the claim. Who's got a functioning car and the requitsite pc/chip reader to play with?
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    As I said, I have no issue deciding safety over prosecution, but given some LEO's perception of what's truly most important, this could come to an onscene disagreement with negative consequences on the occupants and/or rescuers.

    This would seem to be a case of technology being out there but not utilized? my camera keeps all that data when I change batteries, I'm sure the last 60 min. of driving time can be made to be kept?

    If LE thinks this info should be available, they should follow the legislative process to ensure its there (Good luck, plenty will come out to fight "Big Brother").

  15. #15
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Disconnecting the battery WILL NOT cause the crash computer to lose data.However cycling of the Ign switch MAY depending on Mfg.I've got one at the shop now we're waiting to download.Crash happened last thursday. T.C.

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