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  1. #1
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    Default Detroit Series 60 vs Cummins ISX

    We currently have the Detroit Diesels in most of our apparatus and like them very much. We are spec-ing two new Engines. Eventually, we will have to move to Cummins. Should we make the switch now, or enjoy our last two Detroits? Who has used both of these diesels? Pros? Cons? We are aiming for 500hp...Thanks for any input.


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    Bump.

    I'm interested also...Series 60 or Cummins ISM

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbix00 View Post
    Bump.

    I'm interested also...Series 60 or Cummins ISM
    Ok, I will throw my 2 cents in!!

    I would much prefer the Series 60 over the Cummins any day! Especially on aerial devices.

    Why?

    Computer on the Detroit has a much faster response.

    Just personal preference!

    Chief1ff
    Mark

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    We have looked into both engines when we was building are pumper/tanker. We wanted to stick with the Detroit 60 series but when we found out how much more it was compared to Cummins (+$14,000) we changed over to cummins for the savings. Our rep said the Detroit had a little more torque vs the cummins motor but for us it was not worth $14,000. Good luck with the new engine.

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    Forum Member evtrandy's Avatar
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    A while back I worked for brand "A--" firetrucks. We had a city in N.C. that bought our brand with Series 60's with fire commanders on them. Next year they bought some more with Cummins in them, "to save money". After they got the second batch they were complaining that the pressure govs. were not working. Of course we could not find anything wrong. After much complaining we set up a head to head test. Using their own trucks we tested Detroit vs Cummins. Flowed two 2 1/2" hoses at 200 psi off each truck and then SLAMMED one nozzle shut. The master gauge on the Detroit went from 200 psi to 210 then right back to 200psi. The Cummins went from 200 psi to a couple ticks over 250, then slowly...... back to 200 psi. This was repeated over and over again with the same results. This ended the complaining, they just learned to live with it. If you go with a Detroit, Please get the Fire Commander.
    The A/C is not cold enough, the warning lights are not bright enough, siren is not loud enough, the C.D. player skips every time we jump a curb, cab doors only open to 89.5* and it's been like this since day one!!!!

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    The majority of our fleet has Cummins ISM motors except two of them have Detroit series 60. From a pump operators standpoint the Series 60 is a lot smoother. From a driving stand point the series 60 is what i much rather have. We have replaced the turbos on two of the ISM before 50,000 miles and one of the Detroit's kept eating injectors till we got it to the right shop. It now has 80,000 miles on it ( it is a 2000 La France) with no problems. If you are ok with running Urea than buy the Detroit, if your not then get the Cummins. Either way i dont think you can go wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evtrandy View Post
    A while back I worked for brand "A--" firetrucks. We had a city in N.C. that bought our brand with Series 60's with fire commanders on them. Next year they bought some more with Cummins in them, "to save money". After they got the second batch they were complaining that the pressure govs. were not working. Of course we could not find anything wrong. After much complaining we set up a head to head test. Using their own trucks we tested Detroit vs Cummins. Flowed two 2 1/2" hoses at 200 psi off each truck and then SLAMMED one nozzle shut. The master gauge on the Detroit went from 200 psi to 210 then right back to 200psi. The Cummins went from 200 psi to a couple ticks over 250, then slowly...... back to 200 psi. This was repeated over and over again with the same results. This ended the complaining, they just learned to live with it. If you go with a Detroit, Please get the Fire Commander.
    Those issues are the fault of the PSG's, not the engine. All brands of PSG have "ramp" adjustments to change settings. We did a similar test on our 3 rigs with series 60's and fire commanders. The 3 of them weren't even close to one another, until we made the ramp adjustments to make them behave in a similar fashion. FYI, detroit does not make the Fire Commander. Its made by class One and its innards are the same as the Class One Captain governor and ENFO II.

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Drove a 100' platform with a DD. Drove a sister platform with a Cummins. You can have your DD.Keep in mind the ISX you get in Fire apparatus is the new 12.9 liter NOT the 15 liter ISX I know and love. If you have DD and have good luck with them keep buying until you can't anymore.Make parts easier.The Cummins will serve you well as it has us since 1990.So if you're ready to make the jump,well,I think you'll be well pleased. T.C.

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    Tell 'em T.C. the big ISX never had to shy away from a Detroit. The next best thing that could happen is when they finally toss the power grabbing Allison.

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    The nice thing about Cummins is--you can still get a 2007 emissions engine ISM 45 or 500 hp without DPF. No Re-gen!

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    Ask me how I know,a 09 no less,hehe T.C.

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    From service techs to Class 8 drivers, I heard some very positive things about the ISX. Our FD fleet includes both labels, and we have found them both to be very durable engines. From a user standpoint, I would choose ISX due to better customer support from our local dealer, no urea necessary, and our guys at the shop like Cummins better.

    Unless things have changed, the Series 60 will disappear; a casualty of the 2010 emissions requirements. If Detroit markets the DD (13 and 15 liter), that would be something I recommend you look into. Everything I read would make it a good fire service powerplant, maybe better than the 60 series.

    Here is a comparison: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/engines/compare.aspx

    Bottom line is both are excellent engines. Question is how close are you to purchase and what will be available when you sign the contract. The emissions requirements have caused us all geat frustration.

    Good luck with your project.

    CP

  13. #13
    Forum Member IR1man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrian72 View Post
    We currently have the Detroit Diesels in most of our apparatus and like them very much. We are spec-ing two new Engines. Eventually, we will have to move to Cummins. Should we make the switch now, or enjoy our last two Detroits? Who has used both of these diesels? Pros? Cons? We are aiming for 500hp...Thanks for any input.
    There will be a leading apparatus manufacturer offering both DDC (DD13) and Cummins (ISX11.9) 500HP engines in 2010. If you are having good luck with performance and service from current Detroit Diesel's, you won't necessarily have to change UNLESS you have a stronger preference on chassis brand. Basically, if your concerned with short and long term, both DDC and Cummins will continue to be available.

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    Smile

    Keep in mind the DD13 is a Mercedes engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedic20 View Post
    Those issues are the fault of the PSG's, not the engine. All brands of PSG have "ramp" adjustments to change settings. We did a similar test on our 3 rigs with series 60's and fire commanders. The 3 of them weren't even close to one another, until we made the ramp adjustments to make them behave in a similar fashion. FYI, detroit does not make the Fire Commander. Its made by class One and its innards are the same as the Class One Captain governor and ENFO II.
    I never said anything about who made what. A Capt. Gov. controls Cummins by using remote throttle, be it wired or over J-1939. The Fire Commander controls a Detroit by using the cruise control inputs. The capt. gov. and info II are two different boxes, the Fire Commander is one. I have never taken either apart but I doubt the "innards are the same".
    Connect a laptop to a Cummins and monitor battery voltage then start the truck. If your battery is at 12.4 volts that is what the laptop will show until the engine is up to idle, then you will see 14.something, if you have a good alt. Do the same with a Detroit. You wil see 12.4 volts, as the engine is turning over you will see something like, 12.0, 11.8, 10.9, 10.2. Then after it starts, 10.5, 11.0 12.6, 13.7 and finally 14.something. Either a Cummins starts so easily that it causes no voltage drop at all, or Cummins electronics is slower than Detroit. You can ramp the capt gov all you want, it will not keep up with a fire commander, I've tried.
    The A/C is not cold enough, the warning lights are not bright enough, siren is not loud enough, the C.D. player skips every time we jump a curb, cab doors only open to 89.5* and it's been like this since day one!!!!

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    The reason a Detroit equipped with a PSG works so well is because the governor is actually in the Detroit's ECM. All a Fire Commander is, is a couple of toggle switches and some fancy gauges. We have three olders rigs with Detroit 92's and the PSG consists of three toggle switches and a couple of lights, no Fire Commander required. And for the record, FRC makes the latest Fire Commanders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdogg1 View Post
    Keep in mind the DD13 is a Mercedes engine.
    Not correct. In Europe the DD13 may be replacing the MBE engines in particular chassis, though the DD13s that will be in North America are designed, tested, and manufactured in Detroit, MI. Remember, in 2010, US EPA regs. will be much more strict than that of Europe, the guys in Detoit had to design this engine around US emission regs and newly required components. People can split hairs all day around any automotive corp. and shared technologies between continents. The DD13 is as made in the USA as any of them are.

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    We just had a guy out to my part time department showing us a new truck. He said that the 60 series is no longer available in 2010

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    IR,that may be but it HAS Mercedes roots.This crap has gotten way out of hand.Now being a gentleman farmer,I KNOW what Urea(cowpi**)does to steel.I CAN'T wait to see how it screws up other components.NONE of this JUNK has ANY place on Emergency apparatus.Big government,as predicted in Thomas Jeffersons days,will be the death of us all. There ARE problems with the 07 engines,that will pale in comparison to what you are going to see after'10.Better have some old mechanical spares that will work when the new junk goes down.And it will. T.C.

  20. #20
    Forum Member IR1man's Avatar
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    10-4 Rescue, just tring keep facts straight. As far as opinions go regarding EPA and this industry, no argument on the logic (or lack of) of further complicatating already too expensive apparatus. I would think any house fire will pollute more in seconds or minutes than the responding vehilce would that year (obviously no facts here, just speculation)...

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