Closed Thread
Page 2 of 6 First 12345 ... Last
  1. #26
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    I agree a 2.5 inch hand line is not big water. To often the old adage "Big water, Big fire" is thrown around. The big water is your ground monitors, ladder pipes and, wagon pipes. As far as advancing a 2.5 I feel it all boils down to training and drilling with it. yes the 2.5 is a bitch for 4,5,6 individuals to advance. However by regularly drilling a 4/5 man TEAM can advance it pretty efficiently. Have the guys drill on advancing a 2.5 only. If they can get to the point of working as a team to advance the line with a 2.5. Utilizing a nozzleman, Backup man, Control and, doorman. Then and 1 3/4 is like a booster line for them to advance. One drill i have done in the past and is great for hose line advancement, is to head over to the local playground. (pick a time their is no kids playing, like after line up on Sunday Morning) Run a fire line tape through the twist and turns of the playground equipment. Then have the guys advance the line through following the fire line tape. Start with the 1 3/4 then after getting good at it switch to the 2.5.

    this is by no means is to imply that the ones saying use a 1 3/4 on this fire, are not proficient at hose line advancement.

    lastly add my vote for the 1 3/4 for this fire

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    yes the 2.5 is a bitch for 4,5,6 individuals to advance. However by regularly drilling a 4/5 man TEAM can advance it pretty efficiently. Have the guys drill on advancing a 2.5 only. If they can get to the point of working as a team to advance the line with a 2.5. Utilizing a nozzleman, Backup man, Control and, doorman.
    4 to 6 guys to advance a handline, that's just crazy talk.

    If we have a third guy to help advance the first line or two it's a rare luxury.

  3. #28
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    yea i know with staffing restrictions it is hard to muster up the man power. The thing to remember is the fire goes the way the inital attack line goes. With reduced staffing, it is even more important for the fire attack to work as a team. if you only have two guys for the line then it is even more important for them to train and drill on hose line advancement. To many guys say all the time it is just streatching a hose. fast foward to the next fire and they look like two monkeys screwing a football. screendoors slamming on the line. Doors not chocked. the guys yelling at each other to pull hose, whilie every one is camping out at the nozzle. Yup it is easy, we are just pulling hose.

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    Squad1LT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    215

    Default

    bread and butter. Get in and put it out. These are easy you don't have to look for it you already know exactly where it is at.

  5. #30
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,596

    Default

    If that energized power line wasn't part of the equation, and I was going interior from the get go, I would pull a 1.75".

    However, my crew would not be going anywhere inside that fence line until the power has been shut down. hence the 1.50" line or the deck gun from the street. Structure is completly gone and any occupants are dead. Not going to add my crew to the body count.

  6. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If that energized power line wasn't part of the equation, and I was going interior from the get go, I would pull a 1.75".
    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

  7. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    I don't have a problem with what they did in relation to the power line. They entered through the gate and I don't have a problem with that as long as the fence wasn't energized. They may have seen a break in the fence or tossed a halligan against it to see if it was energized or not. When going after the bedroom window they did get a little close to the line for me.

    Good point about a compartment fire vs an open space, in this example they hit the fire and darkened it, but then came right back. So it would be interesting to see a few different attacks.

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,596

    Default

    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

    Let me rephrase.

    In this case, there is no way I would go interior. Nothing to save. Fire into the roof supports. No reason to go interior.

    The energized electrical line just adds an extra element of risk.

    I was referring to the general discussion of 1.75" v. 2.50" for normal residental fires. My statement was in that context.

    I don't think I have ever pulled a 2.5" for a average sized residental fire.

  9. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

    Let me rephrase.

    In this case, there is no way I would go interior. Nothing to save. Fire into the roof supports. No reason to go interior.

    The energized electrical line just adds an extra element of risk.

    I was referring to the general discussion of 1.75" v. 2.50" for normal residental fires. My statement was in that context.

    I don't think I have ever pulled a 2.5" for a average sized residental fire.
    No, I was wrong on this one, I'll give you that, I failed to read your first line properly. I have to agree that we'd not pull a 2.5" on a small SFD unless it was a defensive job only.

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    478

    Default

    We have occassionally pulled 2 1/2 lines for residential fires. Worked awesome on a detached garage fire one time.

    Car and Garage about 75% involved, old style hinged doors instead of rollup. Thru open the doors, hit it with the 2 1/2, had knockdown in less than 20 secs. Overhauled with 1.75.

    Now our 2 1/2 line has a blitzfire connected as the default nozzle. We've used it several times to get a knock on commercial fires. Can switch to a regular nozzle pretty quickly if necessary, we store it next to the blitz.

    Fire in a house this size? This amount of involvement? If we went interior, we would probably go with 1.75, automatic nozzle, flowing 200gpm.

    Like someone else said, if you go room to room, you can knock down the fire in each room pretty quick. The fire in the attic would give me pause though.

  11. #36
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    bread and butter. Get in and put it out. These are easy you don't have to look for it you already know exactly where it is at.
    I'm with you. This doesn't seem like that big a deal. I think this is like most things here - busier or urban departments see things alot differently than slower or rural departments.

  12. #37
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    500 gallon booster tank? doubt it.
    Fair enough. We carry 750.

    How much fire do you think they could have put out with all the water they sprayed from the yard had they at least gone to the doorway and actually gotten some of it inside on what was on fire instead of just sraying the the fire that was coming out of it?

    Like someone said, I guess it comes down to how much fire you actually see on your company or department and how comfortable you are with it when you get it. This is an everyday fire for us. In fact we made 3 just like it my last day at work. They were all extinguished with a single 1 3/4" preconnect within 3-5 minutes of arriving on the scene.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-24-2009 at 06:49 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #38
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    C'mon guys.......a 2 1/2" for a 1000 square foot house?? You don't lay lines on the intensity of a fire, its the volume of fire and this is not really alot of it.

    This is an easy job.

    #1 Have one of the truck guys get a fiberglass pike pole and drag the wire across the street away from the house on fire so you don't have to worry about it anymore.

    #2 The video demostrates perfectly what is wrong with exterior attacks - they don't work without burning the entire buliding down. Advance the line to the front door and advance as you put the fire out. I would bet a paycheck that my crew could have put that out with tank water before a supply line got charged.

    #3 Stretching to the rear is textbook assuming the fire is not blowing out from there as well, BUT 9 times out of 10 it is better to use the front door regardless. Easier to stretch, faster water in the fire, and easier access to the rest of the house on single stories. Protection and access to the interior stairs is the biggest benefit on two or more stories. Oh, and sometimes there are big, scary dogs that like to bite people in the back yard.

    **edited for typos.
    Agree with everything except dragging the line away with a fiberglass pike. We don't touch wires down like that.

    Yes, i'm a big P@@@Y about electricity.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  14. #39
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    first, its hard to make calls based on a video.

    Second, the 2 1/2 will make this quick and easy. 1.75 probably will work, but the 2 1/2 will snuff this fire out much quicker.

    Its not right to look at the 2.5 as "big water", its just a larger hand line.
    I think it's overkill and cumbersome to drag a 2.5 through a SFD.

    No thanks!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #40
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Agree with everything except dragging the line away with a fiberglass pike. We don't touch wires down like that.

    Yes, i'm a big P@@@Y about electricity.
    HA!!! Me too Chief. That's why I said let a truck guy do it!

    In all seriousness, we generally try to leave it alone as well, but in this circumstance it would be better off pulled back away from the house and more importantly the fence so it was no longer an issue - IMO.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  16. #41
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    735

    Default

    Well, im my opinion, you leave that electric line alone and advance the water line thru the front door.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  17. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    if some one did a 2.5" they may only have 100' off and sprayed from the outside until a 1.75" go in place and gets close up.

    IMO the 2.5" would have been a unnecessary. I would have used 2 1.75"s.

    Good job a bit in when it seemed he focused on the travel of the fire towards the delta side and let the bravo just burn. Kudos on that.


    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  18. #43
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    White Plains, NY
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    OH how true that is.

    I also am trained that if it's through the roof and out all the windows, go for the bigger line. Normal room and content, go for the 1 3/4. Also when it's through the roof and all the windows watch out for collapse.
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    OH how true that is.

    I also am trained that if it's through the roof and out all the windows, go for the bigger line. Normal room and content, go for the 1 3/4. Also when it's through the roof and all the windows watch out for collapse.
    Your training was flawed.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    Who said anything about grabbing it? I guess you have never used a hot stick to cut wires either......huh? I guess I understand the hesitation if you haven't had training on it or ever done it, but the best option is not always to leave it alone and wait on the power company.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-25-2009 at 01:21 AM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  21. #46
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    White Plains, NY
    Posts
    77

    Default

    How is our training flawed? Because when a house is basically a write of we should just go in and fight it from inside. Maybe the officers in charge or the chief don't feel like having there guys killed for a building. If fire is blowing out of all windows inside is not the place to be. You attack from outside with a bigger hose and get it knocked down. Now we can't all say what was going on at this fire cause we were not there. Who knows maybe it was a small crew and they wanted to get water on it as fast as possible. After you wet it down get some big line out and put that crap out. simple
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

  22. #47
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    How is our training flawed?
    I say your training is flawed because you are taking a generalization and applying it as a policy so to speak - (you) I see fire through the roof and out all the windows I am laying a big line.

    I say again, laying fire hose is not about the intensity of a fire but the volume of it. Suppose you have fire coming through the roof, all the windows, and the front door of an 8 x 10 ft. shed. Still pulling that 2 1/2"?

    Volume not intensity.

    Additionally, a properly pumped 2 1/2" hose delivers 250 gpm when your are planning to be mobile. Most departments now pump their 1 3/4" lines to flow at least 150 gpm, but normally closer to the range of 185-200 gpm. The slight benefit of the little bit of extra water does not outweigh the cons of its deployment IMO on most normal or small size residential occupancies.

    Had the house been over 5000 sq. feet or a commercial occupancy I would agree with you. I am not opposed to going big when you have to, but you don't have to on a 1000 sq. ft. house even if it is through the roof and all the windows.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-25-2009 at 01:36 AM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  23. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Who said anything about grabbing it? I guess you have never used a hot stick to cut wires either......huh? I guess I understand the hesitation if you haven't had training on it or ever done it, but the best option is not always to leave it alone and wait on the power company.

    You are corrrect in saying cut it if you have the hot-stick. Here in my department we do not have one, however the power company's service center is located in my district... 10 mins usally to arrive on scene. So rarely would we ever need to get the stick out.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  24. #49
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    You are corrrect in saying cut it if you have the hot-stick. Here in my department we do not have one, however the power company's service center is located in my district... 10 mins usally to arrive on scene. So rarely would we ever need to get the stick out.
    Ahhhhhh HA! Another geograohic oddity. We have never had the power company show up in under 10 minutes. In fact, I can't remember a time that they have ever arrived before we had it knocked and were taking up.

    ** Edited for typos. I think my typing is getting worse!
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-26-2009 at 10:04 AM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  25. #50
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Ahhhhhh HA! Another geofraohic oddity. We have never had the power company show up in under 10 minutes. In fact, I can'y remember a time that they have ever arrived before we had it knocked and were taking up.
    During storms the most common response is, "They are not giving ETA's" or "2 hours".

    No thanks.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

Closed Thread
Page 2 of 6 First 12345 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Havana, FL---Single-family dwelling burns down
    By Firefighter1219 in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-14-2003, 09:23 AM
  2. Single Family Dwelling Search Tactics?
    By FFFRED in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 09-26-2002, 02:01 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-06-2002, 09:33 AM
  4. LAFD Single Family Dwelling FIre
    By webteam in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-23-2000, 02:52 PM
  5. Single Family Dwelling
    By Captstanm in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-26-2000, 10:33 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register