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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    So you all think a 1" 1/2 line is plenty for the house fire? Must save alot of foundations where you all are
    Please enlighten us.


  2. #22
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    500 gallon booster tank? doubt it.

    Can't tell if its just a piece of debris that fell, but it looks like what could be a basement window is showing fire.

  3. #23
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    For us - we'd pull the 1 3/4 line - with CAFS off a 1000 gal booster tank. For us, manpower is limiting at the start of an incident so a line one guy can handle can do a LOT of good. I don't know if you'd get it out with 1000 gal of CAFS from the exterior but it would be a LOT smaller by the time enough manpower made it on scene so a interior attack could be considered.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    So you all think a 1" 1/2 line is plenty for the house fire? Must save alot of foundations where you all are
    I didn't see anybody talking about 1-1/2" lines, just 1-3/4" and 2-1/2" lines.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    What's wrong with the 2 1/2"? This fire was put out by an 1 3/4" line (they also ran out of water 2 minutes into the second video)
    We have a 2 1/2" preconnect on Winfield's engines and used it a lot to put large volume fires out very quickly.
    I don't want to get too "theory" on anyone but the NFA Fire Formula (L X H / 3) puts a 1,000 sqft house at around 333 gpm. Well over the ability of a 1 3/4" line to knock fast.
    I guess it depends on how your set up, I've seen plenty of rigs that couldn't put a larger handline in operation without tearing apart beds and digging through compartments. If that is the case then use what you have and get a backup crew to help with a second line.
    At what point does it make sense to go with a big line 1200 sqft tri level? 1400 sqft raised ranch? 1700 sqft two story?
    Not trying to start any wars...when do you switch to the larger line?
    Here's a thought in the "theory" spectrum...........

    Is a 1000 sq ft house (40x25) the same as a 1000 sq ft commercial occupancy (also 40x25)?

    Suppose you have a R&C type fire in this 1000 sq ft house. The room is 14x10 which using the NFA formula, this equals approx 47gpm. This is well within the capabilities of an 1-3/4" line.

    It's pretty obvious that given the typical compartmentized construction of a SFD that if the entire house was on fire, you'd have a hard time hitting ALL of the fire standing in one spot inside the building. So if we expand this notion some, then wouldn't a well involved SFD fire be kind of just a bunch of R&C fires in the same building?

    At 160-180 gpm, there's more than enough power to quickly knock down a room and then move on to the next one.

    Now, I realize this is a bit of an over-simplification, but my experiences with SFD fires, large volumes of fire upon arrival and 1-3/4" lines says it is a plausible theory.

  6. #26
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    I agree a 2.5 inch hand line is not big water. To often the old adage "Big water, Big fire" is thrown around. The big water is your ground monitors, ladder pipes and, wagon pipes. As far as advancing a 2.5 I feel it all boils down to training and drilling with it. yes the 2.5 is a bitch for 4,5,6 individuals to advance. However by regularly drilling a 4/5 man TEAM can advance it pretty efficiently. Have the guys drill on advancing a 2.5 only. If they can get to the point of working as a team to advance the line with a 2.5. Utilizing a nozzleman, Backup man, Control and, doorman. Then and 1 3/4 is like a booster line for them to advance. One drill i have done in the past and is great for hose line advancement, is to head over to the local playground. (pick a time their is no kids playing, like after line up on Sunday Morning) Run a fire line tape through the twist and turns of the playground equipment. Then have the guys advance the line through following the fire line tape. Start with the 1 3/4 then after getting good at it switch to the 2.5.

    this is by no means is to imply that the ones saying use a 1 3/4 on this fire, are not proficient at hose line advancement.

    lastly add my vote for the 1 3/4 for this fire

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    yes the 2.5 is a bitch for 4,5,6 individuals to advance. However by regularly drilling a 4/5 man TEAM can advance it pretty efficiently. Have the guys drill on advancing a 2.5 only. If they can get to the point of working as a team to advance the line with a 2.5. Utilizing a nozzleman, Backup man, Control and, doorman.
    4 to 6 guys to advance a handline, that's just crazy talk.

    If we have a third guy to help advance the first line or two it's a rare luxury.

  8. #28
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    yea i know with staffing restrictions it is hard to muster up the man power. The thing to remember is the fire goes the way the inital attack line goes. With reduced staffing, it is even more important for the fire attack to work as a team. if you only have two guys for the line then it is even more important for them to train and drill on hose line advancement. To many guys say all the time it is just streatching a hose. fast foward to the next fire and they look like two monkeys screwing a football. screendoors slamming on the line. Doors not chocked. the guys yelling at each other to pull hose, whilie every one is camping out at the nozzle. Yup it is easy, we are just pulling hose.

  9. #29
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    bread and butter. Get in and put it out. These are easy you don't have to look for it you already know exactly where it is at.

  10. #30
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    If that energized power line wasn't part of the equation, and I was going interior from the get go, I would pull a 1.75".

    However, my crew would not be going anywhere inside that fence line until the power has been shut down. hence the 1.50" line or the deck gun from the street. Structure is completly gone and any occupants are dead. Not going to add my crew to the body count.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If that energized power line wasn't part of the equation, and I was going interior from the get go, I would pull a 1.75".
    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

  12. #32
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    I don't have a problem with what they did in relation to the power line. They entered through the gate and I don't have a problem with that as long as the fence wasn't energized. They may have seen a break in the fence or tossed a halligan against it to see if it was energized or not. When going after the bedroom window they did get a little close to the line for me.

    Good point about a compartment fire vs an open space, in this example they hit the fire and darkened it, but then came right back. So it would be interesting to see a few different attacks.

  13. #33
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    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

    Let me rephrase.

    In this case, there is no way I would go interior. Nothing to save. Fire into the roof supports. No reason to go interior.

    The energized electrical line just adds an extra element of risk.

    I was referring to the general discussion of 1.75" v. 2.50" for normal residental fires. My statement was in that context.

    I don't think I have ever pulled a 2.5" for a average sized residental fire.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm trying my damnedest to ignore you, but that is so far from your usual that I gotta call BS on it!

    Let me rephrase.

    In this case, there is no way I would go interior. Nothing to save. Fire into the roof supports. No reason to go interior.

    The energized electrical line just adds an extra element of risk.

    I was referring to the general discussion of 1.75" v. 2.50" for normal residental fires. My statement was in that context.

    I don't think I have ever pulled a 2.5" for a average sized residental fire.
    No, I was wrong on this one, I'll give you that, I failed to read your first line properly. I have to agree that we'd not pull a 2.5" on a small SFD unless it was a defensive job only.

  15. #35
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    We have occassionally pulled 2 1/2 lines for residential fires. Worked awesome on a detached garage fire one time.

    Car and Garage about 75% involved, old style hinged doors instead of rollup. Thru open the doors, hit it with the 2 1/2, had knockdown in less than 20 secs. Overhauled with 1.75.

    Now our 2 1/2 line has a blitzfire connected as the default nozzle. We've used it several times to get a knock on commercial fires. Can switch to a regular nozzle pretty quickly if necessary, we store it next to the blitz.

    Fire in a house this size? This amount of involvement? If we went interior, we would probably go with 1.75, automatic nozzle, flowing 200gpm.

    Like someone else said, if you go room to room, you can knock down the fire in each room pretty quick. The fire in the attic would give me pause though.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    bread and butter. Get in and put it out. These are easy you don't have to look for it you already know exactly where it is at.
    I'm with you. This doesn't seem like that big a deal. I think this is like most things here - busier or urban departments see things alot differently than slower or rural departments.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    500 gallon booster tank? doubt it.
    Fair enough. We carry 750.

    How much fire do you think they could have put out with all the water they sprayed from the yard had they at least gone to the doorway and actually gotten some of it inside on what was on fire instead of just sraying the the fire that was coming out of it?

    Like someone said, I guess it comes down to how much fire you actually see on your company or department and how comfortable you are with it when you get it. This is an everyday fire for us. In fact we made 3 just like it my last day at work. They were all extinguished with a single 1 3/4" preconnect within 3-5 minutes of arriving on the scene.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-24-2009 at 06:49 PM.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    C'mon guys.......a 2 1/2" for a 1000 square foot house?? You don't lay lines on the intensity of a fire, its the volume of fire and this is not really alot of it.

    This is an easy job.

    #1 Have one of the truck guys get a fiberglass pike pole and drag the wire across the street away from the house on fire so you don't have to worry about it anymore.

    #2 The video demostrates perfectly what is wrong with exterior attacks - they don't work without burning the entire buliding down. Advance the line to the front door and advance as you put the fire out. I would bet a paycheck that my crew could have put that out with tank water before a supply line got charged.

    #3 Stretching to the rear is textbook assuming the fire is not blowing out from there as well, BUT 9 times out of 10 it is better to use the front door regardless. Easier to stretch, faster water in the fire, and easier access to the rest of the house on single stories. Protection and access to the interior stairs is the biggest benefit on two or more stories. Oh, and sometimes there are big, scary dogs that like to bite people in the back yard.

    **edited for typos.
    Agree with everything except dragging the line away with a fiberglass pike. We don't touch wires down like that.

    Yes, i'm a big P@@@Y about electricity.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    first, its hard to make calls based on a video.

    Second, the 2 1/2 will make this quick and easy. 1.75 probably will work, but the 2 1/2 will snuff this fire out much quicker.

    Its not right to look at the 2.5 as "big water", its just a larger hand line.
    I think it's overkill and cumbersome to drag a 2.5 through a SFD.

    No thanks!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Agree with everything except dragging the line away with a fiberglass pike. We don't touch wires down like that.

    Yes, i'm a big P@@@Y about electricity.
    HA!!! Me too Chief. That's why I said let a truck guy do it!

    In all seriousness, we generally try to leave it alone as well, but in this circumstance it would be better off pulled back away from the house and more importantly the fence so it was no longer an issue - IMO.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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