1. #51
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    The house is a total loss. This is a risk versus reward type fire. Protect the exposure, fight the fire away from the power line, risk nobody for a house that is going to see the wrecking ball anyway.

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    The house was pretty much gone but the 1 3/4 did a pretty good job. Everyone has different equipment but our 1 3/4 will put out 200 gpm & that has proved sufficient for us so far. Didn't here the radio traffic so not sure if command called for defensive right off the get or not.

    Personal opinion-
    Should have stayed away from power line. That appeared to be the service drop to the residence so more than likely there was no power on the structure. I would have knocked the fire back from the front door, & depending on conditions after the initial, made an interior. Put a manned, second line at the front door for back up & at least one more for exposures. Not sure what the deal was with hanging around the downed line. Tunnel vision is easy to get, next thing you know someone has stepped on the line...I know b/c I've seen it happen

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    Great video! This might get long sorry! When we extingish a fire we go through 3 steps. Locate, confine, and extingishment. I think we can all agree these steps happen at all fires and the order never changes. Looking at the video and reading the posts I can see there is some disagreement on how to confine this fire. Things such as size of hose, exposure protection, or where to begin operations. Not to mention there is a huge hazard in that down wire.
    Here are my thoughts going to this fire as the 1st due Eng Co. officer. Due to the volume of fire on arrival,the size of the structure and the short distance between exposures my 1st action will be to protect the most severely threatened exposure in the hopes that we can confine the fire to it's structure of origin until more units arrive. Simple, this does 2 things. One protects the life hazard which is us There is no living victums in the fire structure. To start with an aggressive interior attack will only endanger the lives of the FF's for no real gain, and number 2 protects the most saveable property that is most severely threatened.
    Beginning an exterior attack on the house fire does not protect the D exposure which probably has extended fire it from watching the video. You will also need big water to extingish the main fire building. Granted the house may only be 1000 sqft, but there is more than building material on fire here, plastics and synthetic furnishings are involved here to a great extent. 1 3/4 in isn't putting out this fire sorry.
    As for the 1st line,(1 3/4 in) charge it on the outside and sweep the B side of exposure D and D side of the fire building just to cool and slow the transfer of radiate heat. Next enter the D exposure and begin extinishing extention. Also every now and again shoot the stream out a window into the fire building to push back flames. As for the wire. Leave it be until the utility Co. turns the power to it off from the street. Electricity can arch long distances and increases when water is present.
    There are many more ways to fight this fire, but as a 1st due Eng Co. with maybe 4 guys on a good day this makes the most sense. Especially if the other units are 3-5 minute out. John Norman, authur of the Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics 3rd Ed. pg 59 say " Be alert to prevent the common mistake of taking a hoseline directly to the location where flame is issuing from a building".
    Be safe. I enjoyed the posts

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    Would have to agree to let the power line area alone, but marked. But the one thing I have not seen so far in the debate would be the use of 2 inch hose, as compared to 1 3/4 or 2 1/2. Would that be a viable option also? Other than that, alot of departments are going more defensive these days since we have been made more aware of the possibilites that could happen in structures such as this.

    On the other side of the coin, I would have taken the 2 inch and attacked the structure from the inside with a secondary line ready to go. Again, as stated there are so many variables in different areas, and different ways at looking at a structure these days as compared to the past.

    With the start of all the new safety procedures, close calls, and such, alot of departments are staying defensive. Their SOP require them to do so, and their OIC do not deter from that plan. Is it flawed, that these departments do not wish to take chances with their members to save nothing, or is some of it fear of the OIC and their commanders saying, " we better just be safe instead of sorry because something could happen"?

    I have seen some tremendous knockdowns throughout the years on building such as this and worse. No one hurt, nothing lost. I have also seen reports of FF getting trapped inside these same types of buildings and loosing their lives. So where do we start, and where do we go in the future with attacking fires? Do we just become a defensive department out of fear and possibilites, or do we still attack as trained and see where we get?

    I don't have the answer. But reading this thread should enlighten people that we are coming to the crossroads in the fire service with this situation. One article you read says do this, the other says don't. One instructor says to attack, the other says defense.

    Maybe someone can elighten me. As a Volly Chief and with over 35 years in the service, I still worry about our people every call. So should we go defensive on these or continue to attack?


    STILL STANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    How about having one guy stretch a 2 1/2 sit on it, knock the main body of fire down and then having someone else stretch a 1 3/4. This would take a minimum of three guys. Bulk of the fire knocked, with a smaller line ready to go interior and finish the job. Stay away from the damn line, absolutely no reason to risk your life to move it.
    Last edited by HooknCanman32; 07-05-2009 at 11:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooknCanman32 View Post
    How about having one guy stretch a 2 1/2 sit on it, knock the main body of fire down and then having someone else stretch a 1 3/4. This would take a minimum of three guys. Bulk of the fire knocked, with a smaller line ready to go interior and finish the job. Stay away from the damn line, absolutely no reason to risk your life to move it.
    Not changing my point of view on the matter, I woul dstill use a preconnect, but to your point:

    If that is your plan, why lay the 2 1/2"? Just knock it down with the deck gun and then mop up with the smaller line.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Our 2 1/2 is pre-connected (actually have 2) and with no water supply established I wouldn't use the deck gun. 2 1/2 through the front window, knock down the bulk, finish up with a 1 3/4. Quick knock and an easy mop up. In and out, on to the next one.

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    Food for thought..... 1st yes a 2.5in handline on this fire is a good idea again once you have protected your exposures. A 2.5in handline flowing 325 gpm through a 1 1/4 tip can be handled by 2 FF's and moved by 3 FF's. To apply the same 325 gpm with a 1 3/4 in handline requires four people to hold and move two lines. And the 2.5 line adds better reach and striking power over the smaller lines.
    So yes an offense attack on this fire will happen, but the 1st due will not be getting the glory job here the 2nd due will and if staffed well with 4 FF's a 2.5in line is the best option. This would be considered an Defensive/Offensive attack. Again we are suject to staffing and response times. You can only do what you can do with what you have at that moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooknCanman32 View Post
    Our 2 1/2 is pre-connected (actually have 2) and with no water supply established I wouldn't use the deck gun. 2 1/2 through the front window, knock down the bulk, finish up with a 1 3/4. Quick knock and an easy mop up. In and out, on to the next one.
    It amazes me how little fireman actually know about putting out fires.

    This is not a large volume of fire, but to your point: Fires go out by the RATE of the water applied, not the total amount of water applied. When confronted with a large volume of fireand a limited water supply, using the deck gun is the best choice.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    As I stated no established water supply, no deck gun. If we had an ESTABLISHED water supply sure go ahead use it, perfectly fine with me. If thats what I pulled up on, thats what I would have done. You have your way, we have ours. But I guess since it's not the Memphis way it's wrong right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooknCanman32 View Post
    As I stated no established water supply, no deck gun. If we had an ESTABLISHED water supply sure go ahead use it, perfectly fine with me. If thats what I pulled up on, thats what I would have done. You have your way, we have ours. But I guess since it's not the Memphis way it's wrong right?
    Wow....lighten up Francis.

    He never said you were wrong because you didn't do it his way... he's pointing out that the amount of water you put on it isn't what puts the fire out, but the rate. If you put 100GPM on a fire that requires 200GPM, you can dump your entire tank on the f--ker, and it ain't going out. If you use your deck gun, you're going to break it's back and still have water in the tank.


    It's GPM's vs. BTU's....not that tough.

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    Our engines carry 250 less than Memphis, but a deck gun with a 500 gallon booster tank can do a lot of damage. If you have a lot of fire, and can hit it with the deck gun or something big do it. Pulling the 1.75 or something small because of no water supply is silly. If I'm using my booster tank on a fire, I'm going to use it as fast as I can. Better to have 1 minute of 500 gpm and wait 4 minutes (hopefully it doesnt take that long haha) for the hydrant guy to give me water than throw 100 gpm at it for 5 minutes while the hydrant is getting hooked up. I bet my fire will be smaller at the end of the 5 minutes.

    Personally I find it curious that guys love using "THE CAN" and get all happy in the pants over it, but balk at using a fire engine with at least 100X more water in the same manner. I guess engine work isn't as simple joke, takes some thinking.
    Last edited by nameless; 07-06-2009 at 06:39 PM.

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    My department is a suburban style department, all hydrants no tenders. We get in discussions like this with our neighboring rural departments all the time.

    We tend to want to dump all the water we have on the fire as fast as we can and overpower it with GPM

    They want to conserve water and only use it as fast as they can shuttle it. They even use selective gallonage nozzles to limit the amount of water they are using.

    In their mind, they can't adopt our tactic because of the shuttles. What if they use all of their water and it doesn't work?

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    Default They did put it out, good job.

    I don't know if I'd do much different here, I'd want to call for a big line (3" in our case) on the exposure but I guess they didn't have a sustainable water connection at first, the 3" line would then quickly empty the tank and leave the other line dry after that. They put out as much as they could from outside and only went inside to finish off, no criticism on that point. And I think the deck gun would do more harm than good to that tiny house. Stay clear of the wire, haven't gotten any hotsticks, wait for power company.

    For all who say, "it's gone", I say: We always put the fire out.

    On a side note: In Greece, the power company responded to scenes with yellow lights and sirens, they could often be on the site long before any sign of fire department.

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    We are not trained to cut or move downed lines here. We tape off the area close to the downed line, announce it over the radio, and stage someone there for extra precaution until PG&E arrives to shut it down. This would be the job of one of our chiefs.

    Besides the downed line we would have streched a 1.75" to the door and made entry. Out here we protect life, property, and enviornment. We don't write off homes with heavy involvement just because their isn't a rescue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    Food for thought..... 1st yes a 2.5in handline on this fire is a good idea again once you have protected your exposures. A 2.5in handline flowing 325 gpm through a 1 1/4 tip can be handled by 2 FF's and moved by 3 FF's. To apply the same 325 gpm with a 1 3/4 in handline requires four people to hold and move two lines. And the 2.5 line adds better reach and striking power over the smaller lines.
    So yes an offense attack on this fire will happen, but the 1st due will not be getting the glory job here the 2nd due will and if staffed well with 4 FF's a 2.5in line is the best option. This would be considered an Defensive/Offensive attack. Again we are suject to staffing and response times. You can only do what you can do with what you have at that moment.
    Like Memphis, I'd still go with a smaller line on this fire. While your data is correct, it kind of shows a lack of understanding of residential building construction and firefighting with in such in my opinion.

    As I previously mentioned, most would attack a R&C fire with a small handline because it is maneuverable and adequate for the job. To a large extent, a well involved SFD is very much just a bunch of R&C fires in the same building. Generally, a R&C type fire doesn't require 325gpm in any single spot for extinguishment. With a single line, you can pretty much only extinguish fire in one room at a time anyway, so why drag the big line that really isn't needed?

    As for the "better reach and striking power" of the 2-1/2 goes........How much more reach do you need in (small) compartmentized construction? The extra striking power is not really attributable to the use of the 2-1/2, but rather the additional flow. It should be pretty obvious that 325gpm will have more extinguishing power than 180gpm.

    By the way, you can get a flow of 325gpm out of a single 1-3/4 line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Like Memphis, I'd still go with a smaller line on this fire. While your data is correct, it kind of shows a lack of understanding of residential building construction and firefighting with in such in my opinion.
    that's a pretty bold statement to make. Just because someone has a different opinion of what they'd do at a fire they saw a low quality youtube video of they lack an understanding of residential building construction and firefighter?


    I wish we'd give forumgoers the same understanding we give anonymous people in articles on fires or accidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    that's a pretty bold statement to make. Just because someone has a different opinion of what they'd do at a fire they saw a low quality youtube video of they lack an understanding of residential building construction and firefighter?


    I wish we'd give forumgoers the same understanding we give anonymous people in articles on fires or accidents.
    Call it bold if you want to, but you clearly missed the point I was making in regards to that statement and it had little to do with the video or a difference in opinion.

    The video was clear enough to tell that it was no more than an average sized SFD (single story if I recall correctly). I've been in a lot of SFDs throughout my Fire & EMS career and have seen very, very few that weren't comprised completely of relatively small compartmentized construction with the exception of attic and basement areas. I'm sure anybody who's spent anytime length of time in the fire service running calls has seen similiar.

    Given the size of the average room in a SFD, you really don't need much "reach" with your hoseline to shoot water from one side to the other. So if you have a 20' long room and the 1-3/4 line has 30' of reach and the 2-1/2 has 50' of reach, then in terms of "reach" does one line provide any benefit over the other? No, because both streams can only actually reach a max of 20' in that room so any capability beyond that provides little to no benefit for the situation at hand.

    I would expect that somebody with any significant experience with fighting fires in SFDs, would know that the 1-3/4 line (with a 160-180+gpm flow) is far better suited for fighting a fire room by room in that type of building.

    If he thinks he needs to use a 2-1/2 line for this fire because it has more gpm and more reach, I'm telling him that he doesn't need to because the smaller line will get the job done.

    If he thinks he wants to use a 2-1/2 line for this fire because it's what he thinks he would do, I'd say OK, but I'd still use the smaller line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Wow....lighten up Francis.

    He never said you were wrong because you didn't do it his way... he's pointing out that the amount of water you put on it isn't what puts the fire out, but the rate. If you put 100GPM on a fire that requires 200GPM, you can dump your entire tank on the f--ker, and it ain't going out. If you use your deck gun, you're going to break it's back and still have water in the tank.


    It's GPM's vs. BTU's....not that tough.

    Which is exactly what happened in this video. They sat there and dumped water on a fire that required a greater rate of water. No established water supply no deck gun for us (thats how we operate). Hence why we would lead off with the 2 1/2. Knock down the bulk, stretch the 1 3/4 finish up interior and be done with it. My 2 1/2 would remain outside, the 1 3/4 would be the line to take inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd7fds View Post
    My department is a suburban style department, all hydrants no tenders. We get in discussions like this with our neighboring rural departments all the time.

    We tend to want to dump all the water we have on the fire as fast as we can and overpower it with GPM
    This is also how we operate, hit it hard and fast. Nothing says you have to completely dump the tank and leave yourself with nothing and nothing says you have to constantly shoot water. Judicious use of water after knockdown can buy you much more time than underflowing lines until the supply is established.

    Quote Originally Posted by kd7fds View Post
    They want to conserve water and only use it as fast as they can shuttle it. They even use selective gallonage nozzles to limit the amount of water they are using.

    In their mind, they can't adopt our tactic because of the shuttles. What if they use all of their water and it doesn't work?
    This is also a very common thing around us. I always question this logic, as it seems they to think that just making it look good is better than running out of water. If the rate of application is less than the required amount, you're just killing time, wasting water and expending energy. Why not try and hit it hard in knock it down keeping a little in reserve to keep it in check while the supply is being developed? It shows many have a lack of understanding of the very basics of extinguishing fires. I suspect that many fires burn themselves down tot he rate of application being flowed at which time the FD then gains control (which they thought they had all along! )
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-07-2009 at 04:08 PM.

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    This is going to be long, FireMedic, thank you for pointing out to me that you don't get what I am saying. Look at this video. This is not a small fire, you can see fire from sill to ridgepole & it has vented through windows, the eaves and partly through the roof. This is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires. This is a structure fire. A R&C fire suggests only the content in a room is on fire. Once the structural elements of a blding ignite, like the studs, joists, & sheathing it is no longer a R&C fire, but a structure fire. Collaspe become an over riding safty concern here. This is a fact in homes like this right out of Dunn's book. "Fire burning through or against a side wall is more likely to collapse a blding than fire burning through several fls or the roof".(remember at a house fire at least 2 of the 4 side walls are bearing), this video shows fire is probably attacking the exterior side wall from the inside.
    As for extingishment. There must be a source of water of sufficient VOLUME to suppress the number of BTU's. Agreed? When speaking of a R&C fire, most residental rooms have a fireload of 5lbs per/sqft. Each pound of ORDINARY conbustibles gives off 7,000-10,000 BTU's. Add plastics & synthetic & it can double. Each gallon of water absorbs about 9,275 BTU's when heated from 70 degrees to turning to steam. This is right out of Norman

    Stay with me!

    Theroy is 1 gallon will provide sufficient cooling to put out 5lbs of fuel at an average R&C fire. So in that case you are right 1-2 R&C fires, 1 3/4in good call! Tests performed by the NFPA & Factor Mutual have said that flows of 10gpm for each 100sqft of fire is sufficient to control light fireloads. So again you are right in saying a 1 3/4in could handle multipe R&C fires. Problem is this is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires like I said at the start.
    Now I think this is a fully involved structure all of the content in the home is on fire and a good majority of the structural elements that make up the home seem to be burning. So in addition to the content burning you have to factor in the building elements now, which changes the fireload from light to heavy. 1000sqft x 10gpm as stated by the fire gods(NFPA) equals 10,000 gpm. This is just the structural elements not including the content. NFPA numbers don't lie. This building is lost, sorry, & if you use a 1 3/4in on this fire before protecting your exposures you may lose another house.
    As for flowing 325gpm out of a 1 3/4 in. I don't believe it. Tell me where I can find this information cause it's not possible in my firefighting book of hydralics.

    Be safe.

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    itd be 100 gpm for 1000 sq ft, using the 10 gpm for 100 sq ft of fire.


    you COULD get 325 gpm out of an 1 3/4, but you'd be better served to get it from a 2 1/2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    1000sqft x 10gpm as stated by the fire gods(NFPA) equals 10,000 gpm. This is just the structural elements not including the content. NFPA numbers don't lie.
    First as Nameless pointed out in few words, you need to divide the square footage by the 10 gpm to get the required flow. Hell at 10,000 gpm we'd never have saved a SFD!

    So either:
    a)NFPA does lie (and they do in a manner of speaking)
    b) your formula was the total gallons required to extinguish not the rate
    c) you made a small mathmatical error that you should have caught at the 10K gpm!

    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    As for flowing 325gpm out of a 1 3/4 in. I don't believe it. Tell me where I can find this information cause it's not possible in my firefighting book of hydralics.
    Which text says it's not possible? Above standard pressures most charts stop listing flows. If 325 gpm can flow out a 1.25" tip why can't it come out of a 1.75" hose? Again, not common and not within normal operating ranges, but we just did this the other day. 375 gpm through 100 feet of 1.75" line at 300 psi (service tested at 400 psi). This was using a Vindicator nozzle. If you want to see text referring to these types of flows look for article by "Big Paulie" Shapiro from LVFD. By I'll certainly agree if you anticipate the need for this kind of flow pull a 2.5".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    This is going to be long, FireMedic, thank you for pointing out to me that you don't get what I am saying.
    Maybe you did a poor job of explaining your point?

    Your statement that I challenged pretty much consisted of saying the 2-1/2 would be a "good idea" and explaining that the 2-1/2 would flow 325gpm and have more reach and striking power.

    None of what you just "explained" can be extrapolated from that prior post and I stand by my opinion that based on that explanation, the 2-1/2 isn't "needed" for this type of fire.

    Look at this video. This is not a small fire, you can see fire from sill to ridgepole & it has vented through windows, the eaves and partly through the roof. This is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires. This is a structure fire. A R&C fire suggests only the content in a room is on fire.
    I agree that this isn't a "small" fire, but I don't think it's the "big" fire you're making it out to be based on the limited view provided. There may be some additional "terminology" issues in play here to, because a "Room & Contents" fire in my experiences means the room (i.e. building components) and the contents (i.e. furniture, clothes, etc) are on fire and doesn't suggest that "only the content in a room is on fire". We call those ones "contents fires".

    Once the structural elements of a blding ignite, like the studs, joists, & sheathing it is no longer a R&C fire, but a structure fire. Collaspe become an over riding safty concern here. This is a fact in homes like this right out of Dunn's book. "Fire burning through or against a side wall is more likely to collapse a blding than fire burning through several fls or the roof".(remember at a house fire at least 2 of the 4 side walls are bearing), this video shows fire is probably attacking the exterior side wall from the inside.
    So are you trying to say we shouldn't attack this fire offensively? You already stated an offensive attack would be conducted and this bit of info provided sounds like justification for operating defensively instead.

    As for extingishment. There must be a source of water of sufficient VOLUME to suppress the number of BTU's. Agreed? When speaking of a R&C fire, most residental rooms have a fireload of 5lbs per/sqft. Each pound of ORDINARY conbustibles gives off 7,000-10,000 BTU's. Add plastics & synthetic & it can double. Each gallon of water absorbs about 9,275 BTU's when heated from 70 degrees to turning to steam. This is right out of Norman

    Stay with me!

    Theroy is 1 gallon will provide sufficient cooling to put out 5lbs of fuel at an average R&C fire. So in that case you are right 1-2 R&C fires, 1 3/4in good call! Tests performed by the NFPA & Factor Mutual have said that flows of 10gpm for each 100sqft of fire is sufficient to control light fireloads. So again you are right in saying a 1 3/4in could handle multipe R&C fires. Problem is this is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires like I said at the start.
    I understand what you're saying, but I think you still may not be getting some of my points.

    These fire formulas are fine, but for SFDs they seem to look at the fire situation as a whole. While the formula may say that you need 10,000gpm to put out this fire, you certainly aren't going to be able to flow that out of a single device.

    My "R&C theory" is a bit simplistic and probably not absolute, but the underlying principle is that you can only put out fire with a single line in a single room at one time. As such, using the numbers cited, a 150 sqft R&C fire needs 150gpm. Working from the inside out, you kind of need to put out the fire that's "in" the room before you can start working on the fire that's in the walls, ceiling, etc.





    Now I think this is a fully involved structure all of the content in the home is on fire and a good majority of the structural elements that make up the home seem to be burning. So in addition to the content burning you have to factor in the building elements now, which changes the fireload from light to heavy. 1000sqft x 10gpm as stated by the fire gods(NFPA) equals 10,000 gpm. This is just the structural elements not including the content. NFPA numbers don't lie.
    While it certainly looks "fully involved", I don't think the view is good enough to clearly make that conclusion.

    This building is lost, sorry, & if you use a 1 3/4in on this fire before protecting your exposures you may lose another house.
    Never mind the fact that my department (for one) has put this fire out numerous times with the smaller lines without losing exposures. So if the building is "lost", then does reaching the 10,000gpm mark even matter?

    I agree that exposure protection is important with this fire, but I also see a live wire on the ground that presents some issues for addressing exposure protection given the positioning of the first engine. From the limited view provided, it appears that the choices are to shoot water over the live wire onto the exposure or drag the line under the live wire and shoot water at the D side of the fire building and hope the line doesn't fall down. Neither is a particularly good choice in my book. So if you can't safely protect the exposure, then I guess the choice is to put the fire out.



    As for flowing 325gpm out of a 1 3/4 in. I don't believe it. Tell me where I can find this information cause it's not possible in my firefighting book of hydralics.

    Be safe.
    There's an article about flowing "big water" from "small lines" in FireRescue magazine if I'm remembering correctly. I think it was published a year or so ago and was about getting 2-1/2 flow out of small lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    As for extingishment. There must be a source of water of sufficient VOLUME to suppress the number of BTU's. Agreed?
    Wrong! The source and volume of water DO NOT matter as much as the rate at which you you apply it. What determines how fast the fire goes out depends more importantly on how fast you apply the water that you do have, not how much more water you can get.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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