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  1. #41
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    Well, im my opinion, you leave that electric line alone and advance the water line thru the front door.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    if some one did a 2.5" they may only have 100' off and sprayed from the outside until a 1.75" go in place and gets close up.

    IMO the 2.5" would have been a unnecessary. I would have used 2 1.75"s.

    Good job a bit in when it seemed he focused on the travel of the fire towards the delta side and let the bravo just burn. Kudos on that.


    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    OH how true that is.

    I also am trained that if it's through the roof and out all the windows, go for the bigger line. Normal room and content, go for the 1 3/4. Also when it's through the roof and all the windows watch out for collapse.
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

  4. #44
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    OH how true that is.

    I also am trained that if it's through the roof and out all the windows, go for the bigger line. Normal room and content, go for the 1 3/4. Also when it's through the roof and all the windows watch out for collapse.
    Your training was flawed.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #45
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    About the power line..... leave it alone! (i guess however if you want to grab it, that natural selection thing may just play itself out)
    Who said anything about grabbing it? I guess you have never used a hot stick to cut wires either......huh? I guess I understand the hesitation if you haven't had training on it or ever done it, but the best option is not always to leave it alone and wait on the power company.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-25-2009 at 01:21 AM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  6. #46
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    How is our training flawed? Because when a house is basically a write of we should just go in and fight it from inside. Maybe the officers in charge or the chief don't feel like having there guys killed for a building. If fire is blowing out of all windows inside is not the place to be. You attack from outside with a bigger hose and get it knocked down. Now we can't all say what was going on at this fire cause we were not there. Who knows maybe it was a small crew and they wanted to get water on it as fast as possible. After you wet it down get some big line out and put that crap out. simple
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

  7. #47
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    How is our training flawed?
    I say your training is flawed because you are taking a generalization and applying it as a policy so to speak - (you) I see fire through the roof and out all the windows I am laying a big line.

    I say again, laying fire hose is not about the intensity of a fire but the volume of it. Suppose you have fire coming through the roof, all the windows, and the front door of an 8 x 10 ft. shed. Still pulling that 2 1/2"?

    Volume not intensity.

    Additionally, a properly pumped 2 1/2" hose delivers 250 gpm when your are planning to be mobile. Most departments now pump their 1 3/4" lines to flow at least 150 gpm, but normally closer to the range of 185-200 gpm. The slight benefit of the little bit of extra water does not outweigh the cons of its deployment IMO on most normal or small size residential occupancies.

    Had the house been over 5000 sq. feet or a commercial occupancy I would agree with you. I am not opposed to going big when you have to, but you don't have to on a 1000 sq. ft. house even if it is through the roof and all the windows.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-25-2009 at 01:36 AM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  8. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Who said anything about grabbing it? I guess you have never used a hot stick to cut wires either......huh? I guess I understand the hesitation if you haven't had training on it or ever done it, but the best option is not always to leave it alone and wait on the power company.

    You are corrrect in saying cut it if you have the hot-stick. Here in my department we do not have one, however the power company's service center is located in my district... 10 mins usally to arrive on scene. So rarely would we ever need to get the stick out.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  9. #49
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    You are corrrect in saying cut it if you have the hot-stick. Here in my department we do not have one, however the power company's service center is located in my district... 10 mins usally to arrive on scene. So rarely would we ever need to get the stick out.
    Ahhhhhh HA! Another geograohic oddity. We have never had the power company show up in under 10 minutes. In fact, I can't remember a time that they have ever arrived before we had it knocked and were taking up.

    ** Edited for typos. I think my typing is getting worse!
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-26-2009 at 10:04 AM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Ahhhhhh HA! Another geofraohic oddity. We have never had the power company show up in under 10 minutes. In fact, I can'y remember a time that they have ever arrived before we had it knocked and were taking up.
    During storms the most common response is, "They are not giving ETA's" or "2 hours".

    No thanks.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #51
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    The house is a total loss. This is a risk versus reward type fire. Protect the exposure, fight the fire away from the power line, risk nobody for a house that is going to see the wrecking ball anyway.

  12. #52
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    The house was pretty much gone but the 1 3/4 did a pretty good job. Everyone has different equipment but our 1 3/4 will put out 200 gpm & that has proved sufficient for us so far. Didn't here the radio traffic so not sure if command called for defensive right off the get or not.

    Personal opinion-
    Should have stayed away from power line. That appeared to be the service drop to the residence so more than likely there was no power on the structure. I would have knocked the fire back from the front door, & depending on conditions after the initial, made an interior. Put a manned, second line at the front door for back up & at least one more for exposures. Not sure what the deal was with hanging around the downed line. Tunnel vision is easy to get, next thing you know someone has stepped on the line...I know b/c I've seen it happen

  13. #53
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    Great video! This might get long sorry! When we extingish a fire we go through 3 steps. Locate, confine, and extingishment. I think we can all agree these steps happen at all fires and the order never changes. Looking at the video and reading the posts I can see there is some disagreement on how to confine this fire. Things such as size of hose, exposure protection, or where to begin operations. Not to mention there is a huge hazard in that down wire.
    Here are my thoughts going to this fire as the 1st due Eng Co. officer. Due to the volume of fire on arrival,the size of the structure and the short distance between exposures my 1st action will be to protect the most severely threatened exposure in the hopes that we can confine the fire to it's structure of origin until more units arrive. Simple, this does 2 things. One protects the life hazard which is us There is no living victums in the fire structure. To start with an aggressive interior attack will only endanger the lives of the FF's for no real gain, and number 2 protects the most saveable property that is most severely threatened.
    Beginning an exterior attack on the house fire does not protect the D exposure which probably has extended fire it from watching the video. You will also need big water to extingish the main fire building. Granted the house may only be 1000 sqft, but there is more than building material on fire here, plastics and synthetic furnishings are involved here to a great extent. 1 3/4 in isn't putting out this fire sorry.
    As for the 1st line,(1 3/4 in) charge it on the outside and sweep the B side of exposure D and D side of the fire building just to cool and slow the transfer of radiate heat. Next enter the D exposure and begin extinishing extention. Also every now and again shoot the stream out a window into the fire building to push back flames. As for the wire. Leave it be until the utility Co. turns the power to it off from the street. Electricity can arch long distances and increases when water is present.
    There are many more ways to fight this fire, but as a 1st due Eng Co. with maybe 4 guys on a good day this makes the most sense. Especially if the other units are 3-5 minute out. John Norman, authur of the Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics 3rd Ed. pg 59 say " Be alert to prevent the common mistake of taking a hoseline directly to the location where flame is issuing from a building".
    Be safe. I enjoyed the posts

  14. #54
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    Would have to agree to let the power line area alone, but marked. But the one thing I have not seen so far in the debate would be the use of 2 inch hose, as compared to 1 3/4 or 2 1/2. Would that be a viable option also? Other than that, alot of departments are going more defensive these days since we have been made more aware of the possibilites that could happen in structures such as this.

    On the other side of the coin, I would have taken the 2 inch and attacked the structure from the inside with a secondary line ready to go. Again, as stated there are so many variables in different areas, and different ways at looking at a structure these days as compared to the past.

    With the start of all the new safety procedures, close calls, and such, alot of departments are staying defensive. Their SOP require them to do so, and their OIC do not deter from that plan. Is it flawed, that these departments do not wish to take chances with their members to save nothing, or is some of it fear of the OIC and their commanders saying, " we better just be safe instead of sorry because something could happen"?

    I have seen some tremendous knockdowns throughout the years on building such as this and worse. No one hurt, nothing lost. I have also seen reports of FF getting trapped inside these same types of buildings and loosing their lives. So where do we start, and where do we go in the future with attacking fires? Do we just become a defensive department out of fear and possibilites, or do we still attack as trained and see where we get?

    I don't have the answer. But reading this thread should enlighten people that we are coming to the crossroads in the fire service with this situation. One article you read says do this, the other says don't. One instructor says to attack, the other says defense.

    Maybe someone can elighten me. As a Volly Chief and with over 35 years in the service, I still worry about our people every call. So should we go defensive on these or continue to attack?


    STILL STANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #55
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    How about having one guy stretch a 2 1/2 sit on it, knock the main body of fire down and then having someone else stretch a 1 3/4. This would take a minimum of three guys. Bulk of the fire knocked, with a smaller line ready to go interior and finish the job. Stay away from the damn line, absolutely no reason to risk your life to move it.
    Last edited by HooknCanman32; 07-05-2009 at 10:05 PM.

  16. #56
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooknCanman32 View Post
    How about having one guy stretch a 2 1/2 sit on it, knock the main body of fire down and then having someone else stretch a 1 3/4. This would take a minimum of three guys. Bulk of the fire knocked, with a smaller line ready to go interior and finish the job. Stay away from the damn line, absolutely no reason to risk your life to move it.
    Not changing my point of view on the matter, I woul dstill use a preconnect, but to your point:

    If that is your plan, why lay the 2 1/2"? Just knock it down with the deck gun and then mop up with the smaller line.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  17. #57
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    Our 2 1/2 is pre-connected (actually have 2) and with no water supply established I wouldn't use the deck gun. 2 1/2 through the front window, knock down the bulk, finish up with a 1 3/4. Quick knock and an easy mop up. In and out, on to the next one.

  18. #58
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    Food for thought..... 1st yes a 2.5in handline on this fire is a good idea again once you have protected your exposures. A 2.5in handline flowing 325 gpm through a 1 1/4 tip can be handled by 2 FF's and moved by 3 FF's. To apply the same 325 gpm with a 1 3/4 in handline requires four people to hold and move two lines. And the 2.5 line adds better reach and striking power over the smaller lines.
    So yes an offense attack on this fire will happen, but the 1st due will not be getting the glory job here the 2nd due will and if staffed well with 4 FF's a 2.5in line is the best option. This would be considered an Defensive/Offensive attack. Again we are suject to staffing and response times. You can only do what you can do with what you have at that moment.

  19. #59
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooknCanman32 View Post
    Our 2 1/2 is pre-connected (actually have 2) and with no water supply established I wouldn't use the deck gun. 2 1/2 through the front window, knock down the bulk, finish up with a 1 3/4. Quick knock and an easy mop up. In and out, on to the next one.
    It amazes me how little fireman actually know about putting out fires.

    This is not a large volume of fire, but to your point: Fires go out by the RATE of the water applied, not the total amount of water applied. When confronted with a large volume of fireand a limited water supply, using the deck gun is the best choice.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  20. #60
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    Cool

    As I stated no established water supply, no deck gun. If we had an ESTABLISHED water supply sure go ahead use it, perfectly fine with me. If thats what I pulled up on, thats what I would have done. You have your way, we have ours. But I guess since it's not the Memphis way it's wrong right?

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