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  1. #126
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    the only time we are putting a deck gun or a 2 1/2" on it is when there is so much fire that you could hit it with your eyes closed.
    WOW, I know a lot of places don't understand using the deck gun to put a quick hit on something while lines are getting pulled, but the 2.5"
    Do you have commercial buildings? factories? highrise or standpipes? large McMansions? then you have a definate need for the 2.5" line. Sure you can throw a lot of water through an 1.75" line with the right set up, but the reach and punch of a 2.5" line is needed. Sometimes how the water is applied is as important as the GPM.

    As an example we had a church job in a neighboring community. A well involved sanctuary. We used the Vindicator on the deck gun flowing no less than 1500 gpm through the window in front. Even the 1500 gpm rate didn't make a dent because of the type of stream the vindicator puts out. It is a tube of water that vaporizes quickly, a solid stream at 1000 gpm would have been far more effective in that scenario. The vindicator just doesn't have the reach of a smooth bore. Anyway a 2.5" should be in the tool box and used when needed. 2 1.75" doesn't do better than one 2.5"
    Last edited by ADSNWFLD; 07-12-2009 at 12:42 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #127
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    this scenario is a single family home with a estimated size of less then 2000 sqft (that is what the video at the beginning of this post is) and so I am describing tactics that would be used in that situation by the guys that I work with.

    If it is a larger structure with a larger volume of fire then yes we would use a larger line.

  3. #128
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    OK misread the intent of your post, however I wouldn't rule out the 2.5" you saw the results of the 1.75" when the water isn't applied properly. Not saying a 2.5" through the bedroom window would have done better, but on the main body of fire it would have.

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    Something else to consider with a fire like in the video in terms of the line choice vs a bigger line. Could the perceived ineffectiveness of the 1-3/4 line be the product of insufficient flow? I'm not talking about flow in terms of small vs big lines, but rather the possibility that the line of choice is underperforming.

    When my department was shopping for new nozzles a little while back we found out that the flow thru our automatic nozzles was really, really bad. Some of us suspected they weren't performing well in addition to most being in need of repair. One of the salesman did a demo with a flow meter using his nozzle and ours. The flow on our nozzle was at least 1/2 of what should've been coming out.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Enviroment will also affect a deck gun's usefullness. On very windy days even the best of deck gun operators will have to give it up for a handline.
    While I don't disagree that wind will have an effect, if it is strong enough, on a smooth bore the effect is much less severe than on a straight stream from a combo tip. We used to carry a combo tip on the deck gun on my volly FD until we had a wind driven structure fire one night. We were less than 75 feet from the building and couldn't hit the fire with the combo tip on straight stream. We switched tips to a 1 3/4 inch smooth bore and not only hit the fire but killed it dead.

    I think combo nozzles for deck guns should be in the compartment and pulled out for training to show people why the smoothbore is far superior for that application.

  6. #131
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    Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
    Here's why...
    Perhaps its the engineer in me but rate does NOT extinguish the fire.
    Rate of flow not extinguishing the fire.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Something else to consider with a fire like in the video in terms of the line choice vs a bigger line. Could the perceived ineffectiveness of the 1-3/4 line be the product of insufficient flow? I'm not talking about flow in terms of small vs big lines, but rather the possibility that the line of choice is underperforming.

    When my department was shopping for new nozzles a little while back we found out that the flow thru our automatic nozzles was really, really bad. Some of us suspected they weren't performing well in addition to most being in need of repair. One of the salesman did a demo with a flow meter using his nozzle and ours. The flow on our nozzle was at least 1/2 of what should've been coming out.


    Ding Ding Ding. Give that man a cigar.

    Most, not all but most, departments have no idea what their automatic nozzles are flowing. They think because the stream looks good that their flow is adequate. WRONG.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Why is this so hard for you to grasp? We are not talking about the entire operation. We are speaking about when you initially arrive and have a definite, limited supply of water.

    Lets combine scenario's. We'll use my cubic foot of fire and your cup of water. We both know that the cup won't put it out, but what will make the bigger dent - pouring it on slowing or throwing the entire cupful at the base of the fire?

    I understand that you will need more than tank water on many operations, but all of the water in the world will not work if it is not apllied at a rate sufficient to put out the fire. The rate is more important than the volume.
    The thing is - I know what you mean. Rate is very important on how a fire goes out. The higher the sustained flow rate, the faster things go out. As for time of application, you merely need to drop the heat which is sustaining pyrolis of the fuel. Its not long but its not instanteous either. For just how long - it only has to be sustained long enough for the existing gaseous fuels to be consumed while preventing the solid fuel from gasifiying and providing more gaseous fuel. There is a minimun volume of water required to do this for any given fire/fuel load. What you see if you use too small of a line (flow rate) is the lack of volume presnt not lack of flow. Basically, for any given instaneous time, the volume of water present lacks the capacity to absorb all the heat required to stop the gasification of the fuels. That is why rate of application is important - to get the required volume of water there at any given instant in time. If you fail in that, the fire still burns - albiet at a slower rate - and still consumes more of the fuel. If you lack that minumun required volume of water to send - the rate doesn't matter. If you need 100gal of water at 100gpm but have only 50gal, you can send that 50gal at 100gpm or as fast as you want but it still won't do the job.

    If the cup/wood example - dumping it on will darken the fire down more than spraying. That said, you could dump it, pour it or spray it. Dumping it will overcome the area it hits, no questions but it limits the area it hits. Pouring it still overcomes the fire but allows you to target it better and lilely get more of the fire. Spraying it will not overcome the fire but may limit spread. So - same volume applied at three rates. Rate 1 (dumping) could be seen as wasteful since you overwhelmed a localized area but could have done better. Pouring (rate 2) it is likely the closest to meeting the theoretical max you could extinguish with that volume of water as you have more time to move the agent around. Spraying it - well you'd achieve 100% utiliztion of the water but fail to extinguish the fire.

    Another way you could see it is that it may be better to concentrate your cup's area and pour/spray on an edge and limit the exposure damage if this cube is sitting next to another cube. Sure, we lose more of the original cube but we may prevent any damage to the other cube.

    You know this is mostly academic right. In real life, the line(s) you pull is based on fuel/fire loads. Your volume of water available determines the tactics on how to use that line(s). You may adjust your line choice (bigger) based on water supply as well - but the fire/fuel load determines the minimun line you should use.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    I think combo nozzles for deck guns should be in the compartment and pulled out for training to show people why the smoothbore is far superior for that application.
    Here, having a jumbo fog nozzle on a "service" truck nets ISO points. They stay on the battalion cheif and rescue units. I dont think I have ever seen one used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  10. #135
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    Just a couple of points I'd like to address
    A. Why would anyone even consider sending FF into this building. It was toasted from the minute they got there. Fire was coming through the roof, possibly floor was gone or damaged as well. The statement " Because its what we do" is probably the most idiotic statement made in quite awhile. It would make a great epitaph wouldn't it?

    B The deck gun could be useful but be mindful that there would be a certain amount of water onto the ground as well with probably at 440v line laying there hot.

    C A 2 1/2 would definitely knock the seat of the fire down quicker, but you need to have some reserve for 1 3/4 to protect exposures. There was no established water supply during the length of the video.

    I think overall the crew did reasonably well, possibly some inexperience showing in attacking window first but I wasn't there. That electrical line could be a major hazard if the ground gets wet.

  11. #136
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    Those firefighters were way to close to that line. We need to remember the radious for the electrical current can travel. The house was gone Risk a little to save a little. That fire could have turned to a LOD very quickly because of the john Wayne firefighters. I am very glad to see that no one was hurt and with everything said on the bad parts, very nice knock down and strong work guys.

  12. #137
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    I wish I could have seen more of the LDH "Hand Jacking" portion of the video...

    It appeared that no one had grabbed the couplings or did it in an orginized fashion thus, it would have made it a quicker strech back to the source.


    Key points on LDH stretch
    #1 IT IS EASIER IF YOU LAY IN!!! (learn how to not block the road entirely)
    #2 keep the couplings off the ground, it'll reduce the friction
    #3 space yourself out
    #4 slow is smooth, smooth is fast... you've got to train on doing it
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  13. #138
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    There's no way you can put this volume of fire out with an 1 3/4" handline! I mean seriously no way! no how ! I mean doesn't this say it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by ffnj40 View Post
    This is going to be long, FireMedic, thank you for pointing out to me that you don't get what I am saying. Look at this video. This is not a small fire, you can see fire from sill to ridgepole & it has vented through windows, the eaves and partly through the roof. This is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires. This is a structure fire. A R&C fire suggests only the content in a room is on fire. Once the structural elements of a blding ignite, like the studs, joists, & sheathing it is no longer a R&C fire, but a structure fire. Collaspe become an over riding safty concern here. This is a fact in homes like this right out of Dunn's book. "Fire burning through or against a side wall is more likely to collapse a blding than fire burning through several fls or the roof".(remember at a house fire at least 2 of the 4 side walls are bearing), this video shows fire is probably attacking the exterior side wall from the inside.
    As for extingishment. There must be a source of water of sufficient VOLUME to suppress the number of BTU's. Agreed? When speaking of a R&C fire, most residental rooms have a fireload of 5lbs per/sqft. Each pound of ORDINARY conbustibles gives off 7,000-10,000 BTU's. Add plastics & synthetic & it can double. Each gallon of water absorbs about 9,275 BTU's when heated from 70 degrees to turning to steam. This is right out of Norman
    Stay with me!
    Theroy is 1 gallon will provide sufficient cooling to put out 5lbs of fuel at an average R&C fire. So in that case you are right 1-2 R&C fires, 1 3/4in good call! Tests performed by the NFPA & Factor Mutual have said that flows of 10gpm for each 100sqft of fire is sufficient to control light fireloads. So again you are right in saying a 1 3/4in could handle multipe R&C fires. Problem is this is not a R&C fire or a bunch of R&C fires like I said at the start.
    Now I think this is a fully involved structure all of the content in the home is on fire and a good majority of the structural elements that make up the home seem to be burning. So in addition to the content burning you have to factor in the building elements now, which changes the fireload from light to heavy. 1000sqft x 10gpm as stated by the fire gods(NFPA) equals 10,000 gpm. This is just the structural elements not including the content. NFPA numbers don't lie. This building is lost, sorry, & if you use a 1 3/4in on this fire before protecting your exposures you may lose another house.
    As for flowing 325gpm out of a 1 3/4 in. I don't believe it. Tell me where I can find this information cause it's not possible in my firefighting book of hydralics.
    Well......errrr....or maybe just watch this.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDXalzMrEV4
    Keep your textbooks off my fireground!
    This is video of 2 house fires in Gary IN. of particular relevance to this discussion is the 1st one ,it lasts 5 min. I'm guessing the pipeman didn't have too many theories and NFPA formulas running thru his head as he laid out and masked up.More likely he's thinking " I can make this" and "This is going to be fun".I'd say he is very experienced with fires in this type of structure and didn't give it a second thought.Looks like he didn't flow much more than 300-500 gallons before achieving knockdown.Still sticking with that 2 1/2?

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatTheRoof View Post
    There's no way you can put this volume of fire out with an 1 3/4" handline! I mean seriously no way!
    Wrong. I mean seriously.........wrong.
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Well I guess I should have posted it this way.ATTENTION SARCASM ALERT-The following text will include the use of sarcasm any relation to non-sarcastic posts is unintended and in no way reflects the views of the author.Now that we have that out of the way ,I'll try again.

    There's no way you can put this volume of fire out with an 1 3/4" handline! I mean seriously no way! no how ! I mean doesn't this say it all.

    Memphis I believe if you read the whole post and view the video you will agree that we see things in exactly the same light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatTheRoof View Post
    Well I guess I should have posted it this way.ATTENTION SARCASM ALERT-The following text will include the use of sarcasm any relation to non-sarcastic posts is unintended and in no way reflects the views of the author.Now that we have that out of the way ,I'll try again.

    There's no way you can put this volume of fire out with an 1 3/4" handline! I mean seriously no way! no how ! I mean doesn't this say it all.

    Memphis I believe if you read the whole post and view the video you will agree that we see things in exactly the same light.
    My bad. I am normally pretty good at picking up on the sarcasm, but I completely missed it here. Perhaps it was the time of the evening.

    I see it now. Welcome to the boards.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Thanks for the welcome Memphis.I think we will be agreeing on alot of things by the looks of it.New to the boards but not the Fire Service.I've been a frontline FF for over 20 years on a big city Fire Dept. and have always chosen to be in the busiest and toughest areas of the city.I lean toward the Truck side of things but have crawled into my share of Burning s***holes.To get back to the subject at hand and the point I want to make is....it is one thing to read about something and a quite another to put it into practice or see it put into practice.Formulas are nice for the laboratory,when you spec out a piece of equipment or fire suppression system but in the field I'll take the judgement of an experienced front line firefighter any day.Yes ,you could fight this fire with a big line(2 1/2" or larger) and that's just fine, but don't tell me this is "BIG" fire and a 1 3/4 " handline is contraindicated.
    Last edited by EatTheRoof; 10-25-2009 at 07:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mgfdlt7 View Post
    The house is a total loss. This is a risk versus reward type fire. Protect the exposure, fight the fire away from the power line, risk nobody for a house that is going to see the wrecking ball anyway.
    It would not have been a total loss if they would have put the fire out.

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