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  1. #1
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    Default single family house fire

    Here's one we can discuss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ei1RSTFwPA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKlBgTGOSUQ
    Lets just talk tactics, no beating up on the department (don't know where they are anyway) Their are some good things and some not so good things. Let's hear what you think.

    I'll start, I would have had our guys start through the front door, I'm not sure what the obsession is with the bedroom window. To me they were too close to the downed line.

    So what does everyone else think? Would you have hit the exposure first? You can see melting sidding. Sat back till the power company arrived, exposure only. Go to the back first to avoid the power line.

    Please no volunteer vs full time, no bashing our brothers from the south, let's try to stay constructive.
    Last edited by ADSNWFLD; 06-22-2009 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Adding a part 2 to the video


  2. #2
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    House was gone. Just about as close to fully involved as you could get without fire blowing out of every window plus it looked like fire through the roof.

    Fire into the rafters. Roof stability very questionable.

    A pretty clear cut case of risk nothing to save nothing.

    If there was a victim, they were dead.

    Obviously significant radiant heat based on exposure D.

    Live power line down.

    !.75" line to the driveway or the front yard of the exposure, depending on where that power line came from. Cool the exposure, the exposed vehicle and knock down any fire blowing from the windows on the D side.

    Deck gun or 2.5" into the house from the street.

    Nobody into the front yard with that line sitting on the fence.

    They were way too close to the downed line for my taste.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-22-2009 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #3
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    AWSNWFLD, you may have the makings of an interesting thread here but Iím betting it will go way off topic in 4 to 5 posts

    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Here's one we can discuss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ei1RSTFwPA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKlBgTGOSUQ
    Lets just talk tactics, no beating up on the department (don't know where they are anyway) Their are some good things and some not so good things. Let's hear what you think.

    I'll start, I would have had our guys start through the front door, I'm not sure what the obsession is with the bedroom window. To me they were too close to the downed line.
    It could be the floor is burned through. It looks like most of the fire was in that area.
    From what I can see from the video not enough water (GPM) going on.

  4. #4
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    confire
    From what I can see from the video not enough water (GPM) going on.
    I would agree, without hitting the seat of the fire the stream through the bedroom window is only teasing the fire. I would like to have seen a 2.5" through the front door and see what happened when the bulk of the fire was knocked.

  5. #5
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    My opinion is the house is gone. Protect the exosures as best you can and don't even go into the front yard (at least not on the side near the driveway, where the wire is).
    FF-II/EMT-B/Incident Safety Officer/Photographer
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    First run area (Fire): Lancaster, NH & Guildhall, VT (84.3 Sq Miles)
    First run area (Ambulance): Lancaster & Jefferson, NH; Gilman, Guildhall & Lunenberg, VT (185.1 Sq Miles)

  6. #6
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    With the limited views of the situation and the difficulty with getting a good vision of the situation from the helmet cam shots .............

    I'd probably put the first line to the front door and hit as much fire as we can and assess if or how far we could reasonable enter.

    I'd like to put the second line on the exposure, but that electrical line is a bit of an issue. It looks as though you'd have to flow water over the live line in order to hit the exposure itself. Maybe not a good idea? If you take the line of that first engine, then it looks as if you'd have to stretch the line under the power line in order to get in position to hit the D side of the structure. Also, maybe not a good idea?

    I don't think there's a good enough view of the back half of the house to definatively determine that possible victims in that area are no longer viable or that the operation should be defensive from the outset.

    I don't know what's up with the window obsession either, but I would've stuck with putting that water thru the front door.

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    That much fire in that small of a house indicates probable loss of structural integrity, based on the initial view. Quick walk around may indicate conditions aren't as bad as the front looks. My preferred tactic would be to enter through the back (avoiding side 4 with the downed line) and see how good of a knockdown you can make. If progress is made fine, go for it, if no headway is gained go defensive.

    Can't comment too much not knowing personnel strength on the first apparatus or two, and can't comment on size of line not knowing water supply availability. Regardless, get power company en route immediately, get a second line deployed if interior attack made, get third line for exposure protection as soon as possible.

    No harsh criticism on this department as they deployed the first line quickly, avoided the downed power line fairly well, were geared up and ready to go, sounded like good radio communication. I wouldn't have lobbed water through the front window initially, I would have tried to push it out from the rear. But not knowing the capability of those responding I can't gig them too hard.

    Nice video

  8. #8
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    Anyone notice that it was a chain link fence that the wire was laying on?
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Anyone notice that it was a chain link fence that the wire was laying on?
    Ya i saw that was thinking "is the fence in the front yard electrified as well?" you cant see if the fence wraps all the way around the house to the front yard. The guys just walk in the front yard and could have been zapped if that wire had charged the fence. Again a 360 would be what is needed here. The house is gone so don't even bother going in. It is gonna come down on you. protect exposures. maybe get a line around the neighbors house on the D side and attack from the the back. Maybe the street behind the house and come through the backyard. They do need to learn that house service is not something you wanna screw around with. If that guy was looking the wrong way and stepped on that thing, it's lights out. Big water on big fire should be taught to these guys as well.
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

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    I agree that with the amount of fire visible in the video, a 2.5 probably would have been my choice. It would have made much quicker work of the fire than the 1.75. Knock it down best we can from outside, then see what our options are for interior.

    The fence definitely makes the downed wire more of a hassle and issue than it'd normally be.

  11. #11
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    C'mon guys.......a 2 1/2" for a 1000 square foot house?? You don't lay lines on the intensity of a fire, its the volume of fire and this is not really alot of it.

    This is an easy job.

    #1 Have one of the truck guys get a fiberglass pike pole and drag the wire across the street away from the house on fire so you don't have to worry about it anymore.

    #2 The video demostrates perfectly what is wrong with exterior attacks - they don't work without burning the entire buliding down. Advance the line to the front door and advance as you put the fire out. I would bet a paycheck that my crew could have put that out with tank water before a supply line got charged.

    #3 Stretching to the rear is textbook assuming the fire is not blowing out from there as well, BUT 9 times out of 10 it is better to use the front door regardless. Easier to stretch, faster water in the fire, and easier access to the rest of the house on single stories. Protection and access to the interior stairs is the biggest benefit on two or more stories. Oh, and sometimes there are big, scary dogs that like to bite people in the back yard.

    **edited for typos.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 06-24-2009 at 01:24 AM.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  12. #12
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    Big water on big fire should be taught to these guys as well.
    lol.....just to reiterate my point, you can't have big fire in a 1000 square foot house.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    lol.....just to reiterate my point, you can't have big fire in a 1000 square foot house.
    Motion seconded.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    C'mon guys.......a 2 1/2" for a 1000 square foot house?? You don't lay lines on the intensity of a fire, its the volume of fire and this is not really alot of it.

    This is an easy job.

    #1 Have one of the truck guys get a fiberglass pike pole and drag the wire across the street away from the house on fire so you don't have to worry about it anymore.

    #2 The video demostrates perfectly what is wrong with exterior attacks - they don't work without burning the entire buliding down. Advance the line to the front door and advance as you put the fire out. I would bet a paycheck that my crew could have put that out with tank water before a supply line got charged.

    #3 Stretching thethe rear is textbook assuming the fire is not blowing out from there as well, BUT 9 times out of 10 it is better to use the frint door regardless. Easier to stretch, faster water in the fire, and easier access to the rest of the house on single stories. Protection and access to the interior stairs is the biggest benefit on two or more stories. Oh, and sometimes there are big, scary dogs that like to bite people in the back yard.

    Well said.

    This is not the conflagration some are making it out to be.

  15. #15
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    What's wrong with the 2 1/2"? This fire was put out by an 1 3/4" line (they also ran out of water 2 minutes into the second video)
    We have a 2 1/2" preconnect on Winfield's engines and used it a lot to put large volume fires out very quickly.
    I don't want to get too "theory" on anyone but the NFA Fire Formula (L X H / 3) puts a 1,000 sqft house at around 333 gpm. Well over the ability of a 1 3/4" line to knock fast.
    I guess it depends on how your set up, I've seen plenty of rigs that couldn't put a larger handline in operation without tearing apart beds and digging through compartments. If that is the case then use what you have and get a backup crew to help with a second line.
    At what point does it make sense to go with a big line 1200 sqft tri level? 1400 sqft raised ranch? 1700 sqft two story?
    Not trying to start any wars...when do you switch to the larger line?
    Last edited by ADSNWFLD; 06-23-2009 at 04:36 PM. Reason: error

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    first, its hard to make calls based on a video.

    Second, the 2 1/2 will make this quick and easy. 1.75 probably will work, but the 2 1/2 will snuff this fire out much quicker.

    Its not right to look at the 2.5 as "big water", its just a larger hand line.
    Last edited by nameless; 06-23-2009 at 04:50 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    first, its hard to make calls based on a video.

    Second, the 2 1/2 will make this quick and easy. 1.75 probably will work, but the 2 1/2 will snuff this fire out much quicker.

    Hard to judge the actions of a department based on just a video, so my comments are not about what we are watching but rather a general opinion on the use of a 2 1/2" line

    Yes... a 2 1/2" will knock fire out quicker provided you can get it to where it needs to be.

    If you are writing a private dwelling off and are simply going to attack it defensively than a 2 1/2" makes sense.

    But if you are going to initiate an interior attack, there is nothing "easy" about manuevering a charged 2 1/2" line through a private dwelling. And the delay in getting to the seat of the fire negates the speed in which it can knock the fire down.

    Fire showing out several windows doesn't necessarily mean that an 1 3/4" won't be sufficient. An intelligent stretch and an aggressive push to the seat of the fire will make all the difference in the world and almost always overcomes the "gpm deficiency" based on formulas when dealing with private dwellings.

  18. #18
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    stretching a 2 1/2 into a ranch home such as this should be pretty straight forward. There isn't going to be a lot of bending and twisting. Get into the front door, a soft turn to get into a hallway that probably runs the length of the building. Then small turns there just to get the nozzle into the rooms.


    2 1/2 /= big water. 1 person alluded to it being big water, and several agreed. That is flat out wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I would bet a paycheck that my crew could have put that out with tank water before a supply line got charged.
    Two things. Your statement says you trust your men, and I would bet they enjoy you being theor boss. Secondly, if you still have that paycheck to haggle with, I could think of a few bills to pay with it....

  20. #20
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    So you all think a 1" 1/2 line is plenty for the house fire? Must save alot of foundations where you all are
    The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men. ~Henry David Thoreau

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