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  1. #1
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    Default Another fire to talk about

    Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BtneX2yp5w
    What do you think about their use of PPV, myself I would have ordered the fan thrown through the window for better results. Again I would have taken the front door and started there.
    Lets have some good conversation.

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    Not sure if the PPV fan was running, but it definately seemed to be in the way.

    Again, from the limited views provided............

    Kind of looked like an outside fire extending to the outside of the building and up into the attic(?) space. Probably would've put the first line around back to hit the fire there. Plus there appears to be an exposure issue back there.

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    Again, pretty much a lost cause from the start as far as saving the structure.

    Heavy smoke, under pressure, from the attic indicated that the roof was gonna come down. Some risk for valuables but nothing much beyond that.

    When the camera moved around to the rear you could see fire had already dropped.

    Nice work to save the van.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BtneX2yp5w
    What do you think about their use of PPV, myself I would have ordered the fan thrown through the window for better results. Again I would have taken the front door and started there.
    Lets have some good conversation.
    Same department as the other video, huh?

    Are they vollie? If so, I'm moving there!

    EDIT: Just read they are not. Darn!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Call it a loss??? Heck no!

    As I view it there is a good rescue profile for those in the front bedroom if they would be anyone inside. Do we have confirmation that all are out? Does the guy work third shifts? We just don't know.

    The house was an exterior fire, that seemed to coming in the rear u/a with some extension to the attic.

    They seemed to do a good job on size up finding the gargae is a water and focus on the house.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    ffmed ..

    Judging from the actions of the firefighters in the video the house ie empty. I agree rescue profile would be good.

    However once you walk around the back, you can see this will be a tear-a-downer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    However once you walk around the back, you can see this will be a tear-a-downer.
    So we make no attempt to perform our jobs in order to salvage their belongings because the house might end up getting torn down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So we make no attempt to perform our jobs in order to salvage their belongings because the house might end up getting torn down?
    FireMedic049 meet LaFireEducator.

    He's all over these boards, not sure how you missed him???
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BtneX2yp5w
    What do you think about their use of PPV, myself I would have ordered the fan thrown through the window for better results. Again I would have taken the front door and started there.
    Lets have some good conversation.
    The whole thing sucked, there was no powercall siren

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    FireMedic049 meet LaFireEducator.

    He's all over these boards, not sure how you missed him???
    Unfortunately I haven't missed him.

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    For one, the fan is WAY too close to the door to do an effective job. You have to have an air seal around the door.

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    >>What do you think about their use of PPV, myself I would have ordered the fan thrown through the window for better results. Again I would have taken the front door and started there. <<

    If I were king, I would make PPV illegal.

    Check out the research that NIST is doing on "wind driven fires" and you will see exactly why.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, pretty much a lost cause from the start as far as saving the structure.

    Heavy smoke, under pressure, from the attic indicated that the roof was gonna come down. Some risk for valuables but nothing much beyond that.

    When the camera moved around to the rear you could see fire had already dropped.

    Nice work to save the van.
    Once again, you are displaying an incredible lack of knowledge. There is no way in the world that this is a total loss. The heavy smoke you are talking about indicated only that there was an underventilated fire in the attic. A proper size-up revealed exactly what was burning and it was dealt with appropriately.

    This was a nickel and dime fire that was dealt with, IMO, in a very efficient manner. They saved an incredible amount of property. The chance of rescue from the interior of the main house was high. You did notice of course, that there was no smoke pushing from the windows, right? You did notice that there was very little smoke issuing from the front door even before the fan was introduced.

    I am glad that they do not let you near an officer's seat down there. Your lack of knowledge and cowardice would wind up killing fire fighters. Ironic and sad, when you think about it.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Once again, you are displaying an incredible lack of knowledge. There is no way in the world that this is a total loss. The heavy smoke you are talking about indicated only that there was an underventilated fire in the attic. A proper size-up revealed exactly what was burning and it was dealt with appropriately.

    This was a nickel and dime fire that was dealt with, IMO, in a very efficient manner. They saved an incredible amount of property. The chance of rescue from the interior of the main house was high. You did notice of course, that there was no smoke pushing from the windows, right? You did notice that there was very little smoke issuing from the front door even before the fan was introduced.

    I am glad that they do not let you near an officer's seat down there. Your lack of knowledge and cowardice would wind up killing fire fighters. Ironic and sad, when you think about it.
    George, every once in a while I agree with you so strongly that I just have to comment. This post was absolutely beautiful. Clear and directly to the point. How LA can put himself out there as an expert on so many topics and be so damn wrong most of the time is amazing.

    Thanks for an amazing post!

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    Good job, I like the fan and the effort to protect the van from the fate of the two other cars. It seems there wasn't much fire inside the house and the fan was probably there to keep the fire from getting inside - fire spreads a lot slower upwind. House might be torn down, so what. Guess who in this forum I don't want in a commanding position on site if my house caught fire?

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    Crappy job in my opinion. Way to long to get a line in the front door. Screw faning the flames, yeah I know it works. So does hydraulic venting with a hoseline with the added benefit of water putting out the fire. Over 3 minutes to get an uncharged line in the front door unacceptable.
    My dept. would have had the 2 1/2 CAFS line in right behind the search team. Outside vent team would pop any rear windows. Pull the 1 3/4 and protect the van.
    Fire knocked down in three minutes, pull the cielings and check for spread. We run this scenario twice a year at the fire academy.

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    Never said we make no effort.

    Never said we wouldn't make entry.

    Certainly belongings are salvagable but need to be measured against the risk.

    However, we have had 2 fires in the past year in manufactured homes that looked very similiar to this one. In both cases we made entry and confined fire to one room and the attic, which is a similiar damge profile as this fire. Both were never reoccupied and torn down.

    Given age of this home, I would be willing to bet it suffered the same fate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    >>What do you think about their use of PPV, myself I would have ordered the fan thrown through the window for better results. Again I would have taken the front door and started there. <<

    If I were king, I would make PPV illegal.

    Check out the research that NIST is doing on "wind driven fires" and you will see exactly why.
    I've met and talked with a NYFD Battallion Chief that has been involved in the research with NIST.

    My impression is that he would disagree with you. Life long truckie and he is a fan of using PPV in the right circumstances now.

    I will agree that you have to have the right building construction and the right tactics to use it, but it works.

    It is another tool in my box and I for one won't be getting rid of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd7fds View Post
    I've met and talked with a NYFD Battallion Chief that has been involved in the research with NIST.

    My impression is that he would disagree with you. Life long truckie and he is a fan of using PPV in the right circumstances now.

    I will agree that you have to have the right building construction and the right tactics to use it, but it works.

    It is another tool in my box and I for one won't be getting rid of it.
    Ask that Chief, respectfully, how many horror stories he has heard about PPV being misused, causing injuries and additional property damage.

    As the brother from LI said, screw the fan, put the fire out.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said we make no effort.

    Never said we wouldn't make entry.

    Certainly belongings are salvagable but need to be measured against the risk.

    However, we have had 2 fires in the past year in manufactured homes that looked very similiar to this one. In both cases we made entry and confined fire to one room and the attic, which is a similiar damge profile as this fire. Both were never reoccupied and torn down.

    Given age of this home, I would be willing to bet it suffered the same fate.
    That dwelling in the photo was absolutely 100% certainly NOT a total loss and I would be stunned if it were torn down. This fire was not in the home, it was in a porch to the rear and extended in.

    I would be stunned if your FD actually confined a fire to one room and the attic using the tactics you spout off here.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    That dwelling in the photo was absolutely 100% certainly NOT a total loss and I would be stunned if it were torn down. This fire was not in the home, it was in a porch to the rear and extended in.

    Can't tell exactly how far it exrtended in but looks like our situation. Fire went in about 10-15' and into the attic. they wrote it off.


    I would be stunned if your FD actually confined a fire to one room and the attic using the tactics you spout off here.

    And what tactics are they for an occupied residential with minimum fire showing? make entry and operate to extinguish. I don't think I have ever talked about anything but that for that situation.

    If it was a vacant residential or abandoned, it would be a much different situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That dwelling in the photo was absolutely 100% certainly NOT a total loss and I would be stunned if it were torn down. This fire was not in the home, it was in a porch to the rear and extended in.

    Can't tell exactly how far it exrtended in but looks like our situation. Fire went in about 10-15' and into the attic. they wrote it off.


    I would be stunned if your FD actually confined a fire to one room and the attic using the tactics you spout off here.

    And what tactics are they for an occupied residential with minimum fire showing? make entry and operate to extinguish. I don't think I have ever talked about anything but that for that situation.

    If it was a vacant residential or abandoned, it would be a much different situation.
    Once again, your ignorance and lack of knowledge shows through. BTW, the keywords in your post are:

    Can't tell exactly

    Do you actually enjoy what happens to you here?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    To you it appears it was stopped outside.

    To me it appears there was interior extension.

    Niether one of us really knows.

    If there was interior extension, they have been writing those homes off here and tearing them down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To you it appears it was stopped outside.

    To me it appears there was interior extension.

    Niether one of us really knows.

    If there was interior extension, they have been writing those homes off here and tearing them down.
    Who's "they"?

    The insurance co. won't tear anything down. They would pay the actual cash value to the insured. They won't get the replacement cost portion unless they actually replace. It is the homeowners' decision. Usually, 10% of the coverage amount is available for demo, if demo is necessary. This could be removal or demo of the loss portion of the structure.

    If the homeowner is electing to tear it down, it has no reflection on the size of the loss. If the AHJ is doing it or requiring it, they are involved in re-development.

    Of course, judging by the property values I see down there, maybe your statement is not so hard to understand.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If there was interior extension, they have been writing those homes off here and tearing them down.
    We can take your stance and let the home burn down. Which means homeowners loose their home, AND all their belongings.

    Or we can be real firefighters, make a possible rescue, stop the fire, let the insurance company write off the home, and then tear it down. AFTER the homeowner is able to go back inside and salvage most of their belongings.

    My department doesn't just save houses, we save belongings as well.

    Car fires are always a total loss from the insurance standpoint. But we still try to stop it from spreading, and if we can pull out a purse from a car it saves the owners from the trouble of having to replace credit cards and ID's.

    It might not mean much to you, but walking out of a burning house while holding the old family Bible or old photo albums will do more to foster positive PR for your department than any public education class ever will.

    We are running a $500,000 volunteer department and have max'd out our tax rate to fund our protection district. The public in our district does not mind the tax rate because they see that we are dedicated to do whatever we can to help them. We are able to keep a fully stocked pantry most of the time at our house because the public drops off food to make sure we are taken care off while we wait for the tones to drop. One of our neighborhood has adopted us for each Christmas and drops off enough food to have a Christmas party for 100 people.

    That would not happen if we would stand outside the house and said "the insurance company will write it off, go defensive..."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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