1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,761

    Default 2009 Application Statistics

    The 2009 application statistics are posted: http://firegrantsupport.com/docs/2009AFGAppStats.pdf

    Some of the highlights:

    19,791 applications submitted (5.8% decrease from '08)

    Applicant Type:

    18,001 fire departments (6.5% decrease from '08)
    1,209 non-affiliated EMS (3.2% decrease from '08)
    481 regional (11.9% increase from '08)

    Program Area:

    12,658 OPS (3.4% decrease from'08)
    7,133 VEH (9.8% decrease from '08)

    Service Area:

    15,167 rural (6.9% decrease from '08)
    3,281 suburban (2.2% decrease from '08)
    1,343 urban (1.7% decrease from '08)

    Region (new):

    3, 4 & 5 accounted for 56.9% of the applications submitted
    Last edited by onebugle; 06-23-2009 at 08:40 AM.

  2. #2
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    I would guess that some of the decrease in individual apps is making up for the regional increase. I do know of a few that didn't have permission to apply because of matching funds but that's about the biggest reason to apply. After all I doubt there are many with no needs. We always need things.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    WJVaughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Dickson TN
    Posts
    1,028

    Default

    There is that but I have a couple of departments around here that have pretty much maxed it out. That is good for the other folks though. A little less competition.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    But its not good for showing that we need the program. We should be showing gains - even if the application is wacked.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    92

    Default

    What kind of vehicle are they buying for $328? that has to be a typo...

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Ok, I am sure there is a very reasonable explanation....


    DC has DC Fire and EMS. One agency. Announced in unity over
    a year ago.

    I am not aware of any other eligible agencies in DC. How do they get
    two applications?
    Last edited by LVFD301; 06-23-2009 at 01:18 PM.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Out and About
    Posts
    954

    Default

    DC probably submitted for an OPS grant and a vehicle grant.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Duh.... Now don't I feel stupid.... And Stupid is not even cute....

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ENG5TRK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    85

    Default

    I know of departments who have knocked out grants year after year and literally have nothing to put in for. And there's still thousands of needy worthwhile departments who get turned down every year.

    Thats my biggest complaint of the AFG is the mis-distribution of cash.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Soooooo how do we fix that?

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    308

    Default

    they have maximum funding per year, why not maximum funding over a three to five year span. or you cannot recieve more than x grants in x time period.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    So, a rural department that can only pay a small amount for their match cannot buy small items they need each year, they have to do it all at once, and may not be able to afford the match?

    And seems like the act is enacted for a few years, which could make a department eligible once...

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    146

    Default

    The $328.00 match isn't necessarily for a vehicle. It doesn't say whether it is vehicle or ops. But even if it is $328.00 for ops, some depts. can only afford that match. I know depts. in my county can't afford the 5% match, so they don't apply.

    And to the setting a limit on number of grants received, why? My dept. is in need of help. Until AFG came along we were 9 months from having to get a loan for new SCBA, our turn out was over 20 years old, our vehicles were over 30 years old, and I didn't have the proper equipment to keep my volunteers same while performing their duties (RIT equipment). I am still in need of other things. AFG wants a specific project, so when you apply for gear it should be the works for gear. Not gear, hose, scba, radios, etc. Each of those is a seperate grant for a different year. So don't limit the number of grants. Us small depts. can only afford a certain amount toward the match and i would prefer that over 5 or 6 or 7 years, not all at once that i cant afford.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    medic190's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Stuyvesant Falls, NY
    Posts
    331

    Default

    I agree. If not for the AFG program, I'd still have 1982 (industrial, not even fire service) SCBA's, long boots and coats, and the exhaust from the vehicles would be spewing into the gear (among other problems) The ice storm would have been embarrassing with our doors closed, nowhere to go for storm relief... I've gotten 3 separate awards for my department: now we have compliant PPE for all firefighters, SCBA's with integrated PASS, an exhaust extraction system, a working fire & CO alarm system, and a generator to run the station as a shelter. My department has only $5,000.00 a year to spend on equipment, so I'd be lost if I had to do it all at once, or without AFG...

    AFG has been great to us. This year I'm hoping to get past the computer to peer to replace a 32 year old water tender (what are those 'hydrant' things you urban guys talk about anyway?) to provide my crew with enough initial attack water to keep working until mutual aid can arrive... I also selfishly put in to replace my 20 - 40 year old attack and back up lines that are weeping at the couplings... Sound like I should get less consideration because of past awards? I've had to prioritize my projects (honestly, I asked for the tanker last year but never made it past the computer - still a little bitter about that)

    Is there frivolous grant applications out there? I'm sure there is... But, overall, if the application makes it to peer and is positively reviewed and subsequently funded, great. The problem as I see it is the fact that there is a great disparity between the amount requested and the amount available for funding. Last year, there was something in the neighborhood of $2 Billion requested with a little over $500 million funds. This year, there is a little over $3.1 Billion with an estimated $420 million. A lot of rejections....

    How do we solve it? I don't know (but if you'll fund my requests this year, I won't ask for funds next year....)

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    308

    Default

    i am not saying that departments are not deserving, i am just saying i have seen placed get equipment they don't need. There are places with 4+ different successful years, and others out there with 0 and have been trying almost every year. I see places who have excessive spending (waste) and who get grants.

    So then limit the maximum funding over a certain number of years. I was just throwing out ideas.

  16. #16
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    If Peer Review gave it to them, then the case for need was made in their app. What's usually the case is those that also need, and probably even need a little more don't have the points in the narrative. Peer can't give credit for assumptions, all they know is what's in the app but many are written from only one perspective. That's why sending it around to neighboring departments, other members in your own department, etc, etc. Since no one thinks exactly like another human since we all have different life experiences we all read the same things differently. Helps with interpreting guidelines, helps with making sure that the narratives are objective.

    I do agree with you to an extent too, I have several departments that have 20+ year old gear that got computer denied last year and that was all that was in the app. Basic head to toe coverage, even went in at $2000 a set for a less expensive setup with rubber boots and metro style helmets. Sucks, but taking the big picture look says none ran more than 5 structure fires over the 3 years of calls reported. Need? Dang straight. As bad as someone else that runs a lot more? Not really.

    I also have several that we've hit the 4+ awards, and still going. I probably have 200-300 that I've worked with that could use 3 truck awards because the whole fleet is over 30 years old. Everyone needs a basic and safe pumper, tanker, and brush truck in the rural world, since that's 75% of the country's land mass. None of those fill the other's shoes perfectly although we tend to make it work sometimes. So a new brush truck doesn't help with water supply, and so forth. That's why the lobby was there to allow for a second truck award by letting the program decide if someone had those needs more than another applicant. I'd say it's working pretty well.

    Once we start saying X got too much money, or they get their PPE and a truck, now they have to sit out, etc, the whole thing turns into a welfare system. Welfare still doesn't work since all it does is encourage people to not work to take care of their own. Reminds me of the email I just got about taking away the birdfeeder, but that's another soap box....

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Alum Bank, PA
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    i am not saying that departments are not deserving, i am just saying i have seen placed get equipment they don't need. There are places with 4+ different successful years, and others out there with 0 and have been trying almost every year. I see places who have excessive spending (waste) and who get grants.

    So then limit the maximum funding over a certain number of years. I was just throwing out ideas.
    On the flip side of this though, how many truly needy departments have been funded and benefited greatly from the program? I too can say that I was very disgusted with the program when I saw departments that didnt need the money receiving it and our department with a desperate need getting rejected. The program is by no means perfect. I helped a department write their grant this year that is very needy, but they refused to come for any of the grant writing training when Kurt was in the area. I heard all types of excuses, but it comes down to an ignorance on their part. When our congressman was visiting our station, checking out what we had accomplished with our awards, this department's chief could not take the time out of his schedule to drive 8 miles to shake hands with him and request a letter of support. Believe me, I did chew on his ear about the proposed reduction in the AFG and the increase in SAFER. Sorry for rambling, but felt I needed to say something. Stay safe, keep the chin up, and good luck to you and the rest of the forum family.

    Kelly

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Well said Brian. This our third try to replace 16 year old scba. After the last two deniles, I was told by our AFG rep that only three structure fires in one year hurt our chances. In my opinion one should be enough. I too have seen other departments purchase equipment with AFG funds that sat in boxes for a year until somebody had time to unpack it. Must not have needed it to bad. AFG needs to take a good look at the program to be sure that all fire departments, big and small have compliant scba and ppe before they start awarding the "That would be nice to have" projects. I can only hope that with Kurt's help this will be our year. Good luck to all!

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    I agree, if the program was perfect, it would go to the most needy.

    BUT, there is such a thing as political reality also.

    Pennsylvania is one of the states that has some aggressive state
    programs for fire departments equipment needs. Missouri has none. Does
    that mean that departments in Missouri should get a priority in the program? Because my state legislature does not fund programs like Pennsylvania, or Arkansas do?

    I don't think so.

  20. #20
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Problem is there aren't too many 'nice to haves' left. It's more of a degree of nice-to-have since everything that's eligible is needed, but in some areas not so much. MDTs for preplanning, the additional communications method to free up radio traffic, command uses, etc, etc are all valid and needed things that help us to do the job more safely than lots of radio traffic where MayDays are missed (documented in LODD reports), lack of building construction or layout knowledge resulting in exposure to hazmat or lost FFs (documented in LODD reports), accountability system enhancement (documented in LODD reports), and the list goes on. Every piece of equipment down to personal flashlights helps us to do our jobs in a safer manner.

    Whether or not it's a nice-to-have depends on your situation. At some point there's the lower threshold of need versus nice on all statistics from population to call volume. 3-10 structure fires a year, minimal new construction happening in the first-due, paper preplans will get the job done it doesn't need to be computer based. Nicer and easier over long-term if it is, but not a diehard necessity. Run 1 structure fire a day, yeah there are probably too many properly done preplans to be able to stack that many binders in the truck for the officer to leaf through. Working down to other project if there are enough radios to hit 1 per 2 FF crew, which is a necessity at any level, but of course it is ranking behind gear and packs.

    I am of the mindset that everyone should be read for any PPE request where the gear is over 10 years old, and every SCBA should be read when they're over 15. There shouldn't be any computer denials for those at all since as 56 said it only takes one call. There aren't that many out there that other apps would get bumped off, they still read enough apps to hit the higher priorities if something like that were implemented. I just think that they should at least get read and have the argument judged worthy or not. Can't string together sentences, probably won't see money, but at least the chance to present a base case of need was there. Not welfare at that point in my definition, just giving people their day in court for the #1 and #2 needs.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Now, that I could see. For PPE and packs.

    I would like to see better enforcement also.

  22. #22
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Enforcement is happening, it's just slow in the making. Each field rep is supposed to make 24 site visits a year and they're averaging around 4-5 I think. Same issue, they're running all of the programs and followups also and not enough worker-bees to get it all done. Hence the reason they go after the ones with obvious red flags, complaints about them, and since it's a requirement to hit all the ones over $300k in federal assistance they have a lot do to and very few bodies to do it with. Adding bodies means less award money so it's a half decent balance so far.

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Don't get me wrong - I know our regional reps are running crazy. And I don't know of a better way to do it. I just know it should happen somehow.

    No system is perfect.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Osborn MO
    Posts
    181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechief56 View Post
    Well said Brian. This our third try to replace 16 year old scba. After the last two deniles, I was told by our AFG rep that only three structure fires in one year hurt our chances. In my opinion one should be enough. I too have seen other departments purchase equipment with AFG funds that sat in boxes for a year until somebody had time to unpack it. Must not have needed it to bad. AFG needs to take a good look at the program to be sure that all fire departments, big and small have compliant scba and ppe before they start awarding the "That would be nice to have" projects. I can only hope that with Kurt's help this will be our year. Good luck to all!
    I agree, keep it competetive and don't limit how many times you can be awarded, BUT, Rural/Volunteer depts. need some way of being able to count mutaul aid on structure fires to get past the computer. Just last week we went to a MA stucture fire and 3 of my guys did the initial interior attack while I switched back and forth between the 2 tankers ( we got lucky and were only a mile from a hydrant on the edge of town)we brought. Around here we deal with this all the time, especially during working hours when we are all short handed. We could at a minimum triple the stucture fire count if some way was implemented to consider MA.

  25. #25
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    It is counted, that's why the mutual aid request is there. Assumption on mutual aid calls is in our favor that they're all structure fires that you're going to on the away games. But they don't count as much because on an MA call you're not sending the whole gang out the door in that same assumption so only 1 of your trucks and 1 crew goes versus the whole department.

    They could add in some stats capturing calls for the bigger runs such as structural and wildland fires, maybe even add in what gets called to each MA run (engine, tanker, brush, aerial, etc) so that especially on vehicle apps it can be seen that your tanker is running more calls than just your fires so asking for a new one it is more apparent that you're running the wheels off.

    But have to be careful what you wish for. Some larger departments spend a lot of time on mutual aid too, so breaking down someone that runs 300-400 MA calls a year into the same call stats is still going to wallop your scoring something fierce in that same metric calculation. Everything is relative when the same data is used across the board, so everyone would score higher and you'd probably still end up in the same spot on the list.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Statistics
    By lifeisfire in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-13-2008, 05:07 PM
  2. Statistics
    By ASP2008 in forum Fire Investigation
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-18-2008, 07:26 AM
  3. Statistics
    By FireThug in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-06-2006, 11:04 PM
  4. statistics
    By CaptainMikey in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-11-2005, 03:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register