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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Please tell me how it was affecting THEM?
    As I stated before, the actual conduct of some of these two-hatters towards the career personnel in this combo department has been poor. I'd even venture to say that if some of what they are doing happened to them in their career department, they'd be bitching up a storm.

    Additionally, from my understanding of the situation there, this isn't really a situation of FFs wanting to "help out THEIR community" where they live to protect their home and family, but rather the serving of their own personal wants or needs.

    Driving down wages because there were volunteers? You could argue that but I don't buy it.
    The two-hatters probably aren't significantly affecting wages in the combo department, but they certainly could be making the wage & benefit discussion for their own Local more difficult.

    Preventing the hiring of additional full-time personnel because there was a not a need because of the volunteers?
    That affects the union and the number of union members but does not affect them.
    First, do you realize that the ones making "a stink" as you put it, ARE the Union (or at least that Local)?

    It's hard to definatively say if the addition of full-time personnel is being prevented in that specific department, largely because they appear to be in financial trouble and can't afford to add personnel. However, it's really not that hard to see that the two-hatters are affecting that discussion.



    Probably the same arguments against us (besides the legality issue) volunteering in our own department that simply don't hold water.
    Well, given the fact that the law says you can't volunteer where you work, there is no argument to make either way.


  2. #42
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    It's hard to definatively say if the addition of full-time personnel is being prevented in that specific department, largely because they appear to be in financial trouble and can't afford to add personnel. However, it's really not that hard to see that the two-hatters are affecting that discussion.


    Which brings me to my point........

    The lack of fulltime personnel being added, in whole or in part due to the presence of volunteer personnel, has no real affect on the firefighters who raised the issue. The manpower was still there - in volunteer form.

    The issue is that the lack of positions being added was a concern of the union. And the concern had nothing to do with public safety, but was more a concern about more fulltuime employees equals more dues to collect.

    That's the whole crux of the problem, for me at least.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's the whole crux of the problem, for me at least.
    If that's what you get from this fine, it just means that you really don't understand the issue.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    Not for nothing cap, but it shouldn't have to be negotiated. It's a public safety issue. and not public safety like firefighting, but for the safety of the public, and the safety of each and every firefighter.

    Should the Boston FD be operating without an contract for over 3 years? absolutely not.

    Should the BFD be opposed to drug testing, saying it should be negotiated? Well, every day it isn't done potentially puts the public in greater jeopardy, as well as every FF and apparatus operator in great jeopardy.

    They should accept the drug tests, it is in the best interests of everybody.
    The problem is, if its not negotiated, it can be used capriciously and arbitrarily for purposes of harassment. I think it should be negotiated.
    "Did you check under the bed?" -- Judge Crater, 1930

  5. #45
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    LaFireEducator said "Funny, I've been tested several times on a random and one post-accident, and never worried."
    Maybe you didn't know to be worried because you don't understand the consequences of a false positive, or the likely hood of a mistake in the testing procedure. Imagine if it did come back positive ???? you would be sweating a retake and wondering how you came up + .. you might be signing a different tune here today.

    All in all i believe we should be tested but it should definitely be negotiated ... cheaper that way in the long run too as it stops a lot of law suits. Follow the agreed procedure which PROTECTS BOTH PARTIES from the suits ...

    Union ****** ..??.. i'd take a whole bunch of union ****** over lawyers or a LaFireEducator just about any day..

  6. #46
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    Drug testing is a part of private industry, so why is the fire service any different?
    Stephen J Bourassa
    Latham FD (NY)
    member since 1969
    challenge competitor since 1993

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitguy51 View Post
    Drug testing is a part of private industry, so why is the fire service any different?
    Maybe because the fire service isn't private industry????


    Regardless, all of private industry doesn't utilize drug testing and all of the fire service doesn't not perform drug testing.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Maybe because the fire service isn't private industry????


    Regardless, all of private industry doesn't utilize drug testing and all of the fire service doesn't not perform drug testing.
    I guess too many people think the glass is half empty rather than half full.
    Stephen J Bourassa
    Latham FD (NY)
    member since 1969
    challenge competitor since 1993

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitguy51 View Post
    I guess too many people think the glass is half empty rather than half full.
    Maybe I'm just tired from our fire tonight, but what in the world are you talking about?

  10. #50
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    Based on Fitguy's post, I wonder if the Combat Challenge makes its participants "pee in the cup" before the competition.

    I did the CC in 1996 and didn't have to.

    PS: if one wants to make public safety personnel have mandatory drug and alcohol testing.. then do it across the board for all public employees, including teachers, librarians and yes, even the politicians!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-11-2009 at 11:35 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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