1. #1
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    Default MaxxForce Engines

    Has anybody heard as to what manufacturers are going to be offering the new International MaxxForce engines come 2010? I thought that I heard KME had begun to put them in, at least in a demo unit. I'm interested to see how they are going to perform, with no aftertreatments. As there's no way that we're going to get in under the 2010 wire, I may as well start looking at options for next year....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoaddoggAK View Post
    Has anybody heard as to what manufacturers are going to be offering the new International MaxxForce engines come 2010? I thought that I heard KME had begun to put them in, at least in a demo unit. I'm interested to see how they are going to perform, with no aftertreatments. As there's no way that we're going to get in under the 2010 wire, I may as well start looking at options for next year....
    At the Spartan dealer meetings a few months ago an announcement was made that Spartan would be offering them. I haven't heard anything since then.

    I'm sure that engineering the Maxxforce engines in will present some challenges, especially in the area of cooling. Hopefully the challenges will be met and those engines will be a viable option. Maybe NPFD801 or someone else with more inside info can chime in.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home.

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    Spartan announced they will be using the MaxxForce engines in their chassis at the dealer meeting in Las Vegas (The MF10 and MF13). However, my impression is that no guarantees have been made yet about what MaxxForce motors will be in each chassis as they need to worry about making sure they can keep things cool. It sounds like at this time the only "guarantee" is that the Gladiator will have the MF13 as an option, the Furion and MetroStar will get the MF10 engine(s) if they can be kept cool. Of note, the same applies to the ISL in the MetroStar - no promises were made that we'll see this in the MetroStar after 2010 unless they can meet cooling demands. I've heard "rumors" that the MetroStar cab will get a major rework to handle the cooling demands of the new motors.

    My HME chassis rep stated (as of last week, anyway) that HME will only be offering the Cummins engine choices. He seemed pretty confident that the IH choices will have enormous head shedding demands.

    Not sure if anyone else is doing the IH engines. At the Spartan meeting when the IH engine was being announced as going in the Spartan chassis, the IH rep present stated that other fire apparatus chassis builders were looking, no one else had committed yet to the MaxxForce product. Having stated that, however, that meeting was quite a while ago.

    The MF10 is interesting as it seems to split the maximum torque rating available between the ISC and ISL. IH claims the price will be less than the Cummins due to the lack of the urea injection equipment, so I'll be curious how this all shakes out. The MF13 I suspect will gain higher horsepower ratings to compete with the new 11.9L ISX product line on paper, the torque numbers are in line but the 13 is a little short on maximum horsepower when compared to the ISX numbers.

    The DD13 exclusive that Pierce/Oshkosh will be offering is said to have some pretty substantial heat shedding requirements as well. It will be interesting to see how everyone handles this issue in the next year or so.

    I'll say it now, if you're expecting the 2010 models to immediately have a 2010 engine, this won't be the case, at least in Spartan. Spartan and I'm pretty confident HME will be stockpiling 2007 compliant engines to get through the bulk if not all of the 2010 model year. You may not have every engine choice when it comes to horsepower ratings, etc. - but I think you'll be able to make sure you get an ISL or ISC for your chassis if that's what you want. So that magic 2010 date where we all forecast the big increase in engine pricing probably won't happen until sometime later in 2010, when the builders start putting the new engines into their chassis.

    Rumor has it that the ISM run through the end of this year is already spoken for, so while I'm sure each builder has quite a few on order, I would suspect this will be the first engine line to "run out" of 2007 compliant models.

    Sorry this was so long. If I'm off on anything, someone please set me straight...
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    I can concur that the 2010 will be optioned with the MF13 on the Gladiator. We just started to spec 2 more of the Crimsons, and have been told we can use the MF13, without cooling issues.

    What we don't like, is we need to get a 475hp motor to get the same torque output of the ISX 11.9 that puts out 425hp. Around here, torque is needed over horsepower.

    As it stands now, we've had good luck with the Cummins engine, and may stick to it.

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    NFPD
    I thought Carolyn Jackson told me we couldn't stock pile engines like we did with the '06's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaronl32 View Post
    NFPD
    I thought Carolyn Jackson told me we couldn't stock pile engines like we did with the '06's.
    Matt Creech from Spartan stood before us and indicated that is what they were going to have to do. They weren't given test/prototype engines to use for cooling testing early enough to have finished product available at the beginning of 2010.

    The one thing Spartan was clear on was that each builder wasn't going to be allowed to stockpile engines and "hord"them. Not sure how true this will remain, but they made is it sound like you needed a signed contract from a valid customer to lock in an engine.
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    What's the cause for the high heat in these engines? Is it due to the in cylinder emissions treatment? (a better term escapes me at the moment) Are we going to see everybody redesigning their cabs like they had to do in 2007? Also, has anybody heard how these MaxxForce engines are going to perform against the Cummins and Detroits coming up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoaddoggAK View Post
    What's the cause for the high heat in these engines? Is it due to the in cylinder emissions treatment? (a better term escapes me at the moment) Are we going to see everybody redesigning their cabs like they had to do in 2007? Also, has anybody heard how these MaxxForce engines are going to perform against the Cummins and Detroits coming up?
    I don't know all of the technology involved. The requirements for greatly reduced emissions, whether it be accomplished by Navistar's enhanced EGR system or the SCR system being used by everyone else will probably result in additional heat rejection by the engines. That heat has to be dissipated somewhere. That somewhere is the engine's cooling system. How much additional cooling capacity will be needed is something that engine manufacturers and the chassis builders respective engineering staffs have to work out and design for.

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    KME will be offering the Maxxforce engine as well.

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    These new requirements have forced a lot of changes on my Dept.

    We used to spec DD60's, now we're planning on ISM's. Plus we moved from transmission retarders to compression brakes to reduce cooling demands, something we should have done 12 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    These new requirements have forced a lot of changes on my Dept.

    We used to spec DD60's, now we're planning on ISM's. Plus we moved from transmission retarders to compression brakes to reduce cooling demands, something we should have done 12 years ago.
    Sad thing is that this is it for the ISM as well, now there's the ISX in various displacements...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdogg1 View Post
    KME will be offering the Maxxforce engine as well.
    How do you know this? Is KME making this a change or are they just offering as an option. This is something that needs specified?

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    Only ONE ISX in Custom Fire apparatus. The NEW reduced calorie 11.9 liter which is replacing the ISM. The other ISX is a bigger block a 15 liter if I remember right. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-08-2009 at 11:16 AM.

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    Correct on the 11.9L displacement for the ISX. That's what I have shown.

    So here's what I've been given for various engine horsepower displacement ratings for 2010. These may not end up as actual, but you can get a feel for how the various engines stack up.

    Cummins:

    ISC 330 hp, 1000 ft.-lb. (ISC will weigh 1,660 pounds)
    ISC 360 hp, 1000 ft.-lb.
    ISC 380 hp, 1050 ft.-lb.

    ISL 380 hp, 1250 ft.-lb. (ISL will weigh 1,680 pounds)
    ISL 400 hp, 1250 ft.-lb.
    ISL 450 hp, 1250 ft.-lb.

    ISX 11.9 450 hp, 1650 ft.-lb. (ISX will weigh 2,600 pounds)
    ISX 11.9 500 hp, 1650 ft.-lb.

    Navistar:

    MF10 310 hp, 1050 ft.-lb. (MF10 will weigh 1,480 pounds)
    MF10 330 hp, 1150 ft.-lb.
    MF10 350 hp, 1150 ft.-lb.

    MF13 410 hp, 1450 ft.-lb. (MF13 will weigh 2,400 pounds)
    MF13 430 hp, 1550 ft.-lb.
    MF13 475 hp, 1650 ft.-lb.

    Again, this info is probably six months old from when I got it, but gives you an idea of what to expect from the engines as we transition into the 2010 emissions rules.
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    Recheck the ISX for FIRE,I'm pretty sure to 500 Hp.Oops Sorry,you had that on line two. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-08-2009 at 11:35 PM.

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    Default KME & MaxxForce engines

    Quote Originally Posted by MFDOHIO View Post
    How do you know this? Is KME making this a change or are they just offering as an option. This is something that needs specified?
    KME already has an MaxxForce engine built. Was on display at Harrisburg this year. Everything on a fire engine is an option, engine, pump, lights, etc... Just depends on who you have assemble all the parts and put metal around it...

    Sales sheet from Harrisburg...
    http://antietamfireapparatus.com/ima...10/GSO7410.pdf

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    According to Cummin's website the ISX is 525. Our rescue-engine that's being built will have the ISM 500.

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    DVC the 525 ia a 15 liter 07 Engine. No one I know of can shoehorn it into a Custom Chassis.It IS available vocational. T.C.

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    Smile

    TC, how is the ISM 500 working out for you in your platform?
    We spec'ed it because of the long steep hills we have here. Of course all the calls are at the top of the pass, that's when the cars tranny's overheat and boil over onto the exhaust maniflold. Presto, instant car-b-que. And being below sea level every place is uphill.

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    Works good. A little numb on the biggest hills but quite a lot of real estate following. Nice sounding rig when working,quieter than a DD. T.C.

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    Default Might not be the engine

    Hey T.C., you think the reason the Cummins might seem quieter than the DD is you're getting older and your hearing is starting to go? My kids love to point out the fact that mine is. I think they are whispering and keep turning down the volume on the TV just to screw with me but they might be right.

    Didn't have time to swing into Bridgton yesterday. Didn't finish up north of you until 5:00 and had to blast back to NH. Have a interesting story to tell you about the trip and my buddy Tony M. Poor guy had his stones busted to the max. I loved it.... hell I helped!

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    Yo Tom,

    How about easing up on the Goombahs!

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    You must be gettin' senile.A RED engine runs considerably more quietly than those green rattletraps. I'm all for crackin' stones but I GUARANTEE it's more fun to crack Tony T's stones than it is Tony m's. Hey Tony,Thanks for the offer on the trade but it fits just fine.How's your German? brushin' up? How do you say ground ladder storage in German again? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    How do you say ground ladder storage in German again? T.C.
    DAYUM! That was COLD!
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