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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue601 View Post
    So they are going to haul water and initiate attack and yet you are going to take command from them? Hum .... seems like a rather odd approach. Does your city run automatic aid for the district in the area not in the city?
    If it's within the City, yes we assume command after the arrival of the BC and a face-to-face with the IC. It's not uncommon, as it frequently happens where I vollie with our surrounding departments. Someone has to establish command until the department with jurisdiction arrives, at which time command is transferred. Not odd at all, at least not around here.

    While there's supposed to be some sort of auto-aid agreement in certain areas, typically when we assist them it's by request, and usually for an aerial.

  2. #27
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    Whats the insurance on a house with no water for firefighting?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    Whats the insurance on a house with no water for firefighting?
    Obviously you don't get out much. You do realize that most of America is without hydrants and readily available firefighting water except for in the urban areas with city water, right?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  4. #29
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    We're dealing with just this on my career department. As we annex, we have areas with no hydrants. Of course, we have no tankers. We don't even carry hard suction on our apparatus. The solution is the fire district that used to protect it provides us with a tanker shuttle and an engine to draft from the dump tank and pump to our apparatus. That is if they don't beat us to the scene and initiate attack themselves, in which case we'll integrate into the operation and assume command when the BC arrives.

    Similar situation occurs just over the river. In the last case though, the fire district that had their area annexed (hostile annex) refused to provide tankers unless the city paid for it. City refused. A fire occurred and the city ran out of water. They now pay the fire district for tanker response after the bad press.

    Some times payback is a b***h.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We're dealing with just this on my career department. As we annex, we have areas with no hydrants. Of course, we have no tankers. We don't even carry hard suction on our apparatus. The solution is the fire district that used to protect it provides us with a tanker shuttle and an engine to draft from the dump tank and pump to our apparatus. That is if they don't beat us to the scene and initiate attack themselves, in which case we'll integrate into the operation and assume command when the BC arrives.

    Similar situation occurs just over the river. In the last case though, the fire district that had their area annexed (hostile annex) refused to provide tankers unless the city paid for it. City refused. A fire occurred and the city ran out of water. They now pay the fire district for tanker response after the bad press.

    Some times payback is a b***h.
    Yeah, that's a great comment. Another civilian caught in the midst of a ****ing match between 2 fire departments. The property owner loses his house and possesions and all you have to say is " Some times payback is a b***h." Who got paid back? The property owner who loses his home and stuff, the FD with the tankers that won't respond, or the FD that lost the house? Sometimes I wonder if you think before you post.

    I will tell you right now if I were the property owned I would be suing everyone involved. Then let's see who gets the payback, and who is the b####.

  6. #31
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    Actually the property owner has sued the city with the basis of their case being they took over the area without the proper equipment, and were not honest with the citizens who approved the annexation.

    Hence the payback comment.

    The fact is the city did represent to the homeowners in that area that they did have the capability. The problem is that capability was in fact the district that had just been booted out. There was no agreement in place for the district to provide tankers to the city. The city assumed they would respond if requested even though there was no MA agreement in place.

    I can see the suit against the city, but I wouldn't see any basis for a suit against the fire district as they legally had no obligation to respond.

    The cities here often are very aggressive in terms of taking over fire district territory once it looks like it will be developed. We have a situation on one of our borders with a very small city (less than 2,000 residents) whose government (not the FD) is perfectly happy with us protecting brush and grass, until development is planned. Then they are quick as a cat to make every attempt to annex it now that that "worthless" land now will have homes and will have value, and being a fire district, there is little that we can do to stop it under state law.

    I can fully see where the fire district is coming from, and yes, it is poetic justice that the city is finally getting caught up in there own spin about fire protection when they attempt to annex territory.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-13-2009 at 09:31 PM.

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    Whats the insurance on a house with no water for firefighting?

    Depends on the water shuttle capbility of the department involved.

    ISO does a "paper shuttle" to make that determination. I have seen ratings as low as a 3 or 4.

    In LA, each department does an actual shuttle every 5 years. Some districts have split ratings - one rating for hydrants and 1 for non-hydranted areas.

    Though we are primarily rural water, we have proven that we can move more water via tankers than the water districts can deliver via hydrants, so we have a rating of 3 for the entire district.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    Whats the insurance on a house with no water for firefighting?
    More than the insurance on a home that has them. Unless the FD has demonstrated to an ISO rep that they can fulfill water shuttle/relay operations to sustain the required flow and has their other gradeable items in order to acheive a lower ISO rating which translates to lower insurance payments I think. Many places (I'd venture to say most) that lack hydrants have a class 9 (which is next to the worst rating).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I can fully see where the fire district is coming from, and yes, it is poetic justice that the city is finally getting caught up in there own spin about fire protection when they attempt to annex territory.
    I just see you as a completely insensitive *** in the way you are posting about this.

    Payback is a bitch sometimes?

    Poetic justice?

    I am sure the property owner who lost his home and possesions see those as valid reasons for his life being ruined.

    Unbelievable the way you view things.

  10. #35
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    More than the insurance on a home that has them. Unless the FD has demonstrated to an ISO rep that they can fulfill water shuttle/relay operations to sustain the required flow and has their other gradeable items in order to acheive a lower ISO rating which translates to lower insurance payments I think. Many places (I'd venture to say most) that lack hydrants have a class 9 (which is next to the worst rating).

    Last all-volunteer department I was on had a 4 in non-hydrated areas and a 3 overall. Most of the other partially rural water departments had similar ratings.

    Current department, which is primarily volunteer combo, is about 60% rural water, has a rating of 3 throughout the district. Last tanker shuttle we moved 1650 gpm via a tanker operation.

    I have known many a rural department that was 100% rural water and had a rating of a 4 or 5.

    Current fire district that we just annexed, with their approval is a 10. By taking over it's operation, we are going to make it a 3. Fire insurance on a 150K home will go from about $2400 a year down to about $800, while fire taxes will increase less than $200.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-13-2009 at 09:46 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Now that the problem has been identified, I'm curious what course of action this department is taking to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    That's my thoughts as well........
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    Up to twenty years ago we were all farm land. We always had water, we had shallow wells and cisterns first. Then we got a tanker, than a bigger tanker. We added electric wells and generators on trucks to run them. We are now 80% hydrant, yet we still have our tractor trailor with 8500 gallons of water. Our other three engines have 2500 gallons between them and our rescue pumper has 750.

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    They should seriously get drafting equipment, they don't take that much space. I really think this is weak preformance, they have many lakes and small ponds around in the area. I don't know if city or FD is to blame, and I don't really care as long as they get the deal fixed. I though drafting equipment was something everyone had, even Engine 1, midtown New York has hard suction hose clearly visible on the side and I can't but assume they have the few other items needed to draft.

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    Never, EVER, EVER, EVER believe anything you read in the newspaper. I've been there.

    Once had a structure fire at the farthest point from our station, on "a road less traveled". First floor was fully involved with an 8' hole burned through the ceiling to a second floor bedroom. We were able to save the structure but that was about it. I wouldn't let anyone in due to the extent of the fire on arrival.

    The investigation determing that the fire probably had a 45 to 60 minute start before a passer-by noticed it (family was not at home). We had water on the fire within 8 minutes of the tone. Got blistered by the local rag, starting with the statement "by the time the fd got there". Could have easily been written "upon arrival" like I told the reporter, but that wouldn't make much of a story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvfd27 View Post
    Never, EVER, EVER, EVER believe anything you read in the newspaper. I've been there.

    Once had a structure fire at the farthest point from our station, on "a road less traveled". First floor was fully involved with an 8' hole burned through the ceiling to a second floor bedroom. We were able to save the structure but that was about it. I wouldn't let anyone in due to the extent of the fire on arrival.

    The investigation determing that the fire probably had a 45 to 60 minute start before a passer-by noticed it (family was not at home). We had water on the fire within 8 minutes of the tone. Got blistered by the local rag, starting with the statement "by the time the fd got there". Could have easily been written "upon arrival" like I told the reporter, but that wouldn't make much of a story.
    If you were any kind of "professional" fire department, you would've been able to know in advance that a fire was going to occur and gotten there much sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    If you were any kind of "professional" fire department, you would've been able to know in advance that a fire was going to occur and gotten there much sooner.
    My bad...I over-looked that disturbance in the force...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The progressive fire departments make arrangements with rural/suburban FD's for water supply until they can establish their own system. The others pray something won't happen and when it does all hell breaks loose.
    Yep, and a third group is totally ignorant and ignores the problem altogether.


    The sad part is the Fire Department claims there is no water supply and that is why the structure burned down. The truth is a huge failure to plan.
    And that is a fact. There are some excellent posts here, and I think most of the people get the idea: We don't know exactly what happened here, but it doesn't matter. Failure to prepare is a problem that plagues so, so many fire departments in this country, and - particularly in rural districts - water supply planning is one of the most neglected areas.

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