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  1. #1
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Default Speaking of when and when not to search...

    Saw this on VentEnterSearch today, and it immediatly reminded me of thos forum. If nothing else, it should make you think twice.

    http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.


  2. #2
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    GTRider245, pass the popcorn over here please?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    "Lt Dan Harris from Memphis (TN) Rescue 3 sent in these pictures with an interesting description. Apparently Memphis Engine 27 ran a medical call to this address. This is in fact an occupied dwelling; the home owner simply did not have blinds for the windows. A couple scrap pieces of plywood will do the trick every time.

    One of the many subjects that has a clear difference of opinion across the fire service is about when and when not to search. Many people would search this structure, while many others would not. This example should at least make those who normally would have not performed the search to think twice when making that decision. Every fire is different, and decisions on the fireground need to made with all situational awareness factors in mind. Having said that, the building is not clear until we say itís clear." http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=552



    Your Mother was inside? I'm so sorry, we thought no one lived there so we did not perform a search. Kind of a crappy excuse, and it is not why we are in this line of work. Face it being a FF is a slightly dangerous job but you knew that when you signed on. There is a reason that you wear several thousand dollars worth of gear and it's not to stand around outside squirting water. "Oh I thought that we wear SCBA just for overhauling the house after the fire is out." I guess that its ok for the safety sallies and yard breathers but not for true FFs.

    Stay Safe
    Bull
    Last edited by BULL321; 07-18-2009 at 10:04 AM.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    ďGuys if you get hurt, weíll help you. If you get sick weíll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!Ē
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  4. #4
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    *tap tap screech crackle squelch*

    "Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Welcome to our ongoing presentation of To Search or Not To Search. Please fasten your seatbelts as we are expecting some turbulence. For your convenience, a snap-on cover for your popcorn has been provided in the seat pocket in front of you."
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  5. #5
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    *tap tap screech crackle squelch*

    "Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Welcome to our ongoing presentation of To Search or Not To Search. Please fasten your seatbelts as we are expecting some turbulence. For your convenience, a snap-on cover for your popcorn has been provided in the seat pocket in front of you."
    What about barf bags for the smell of someone's bull$hit which is bound to be posted on here?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    "Lt Dan Harris from Memphis (TN) Rescue 3 sent in these pictures with an interesting description. Apparently Memphis Engine 27 ran a medical call to this address. This is in fact an occupied dwelling; the home owner simply did not have blinds for the windows. A couple scrap pieces of plywood will do the trick every time.

    One of the many subjects that has a clear difference of opinion across the fire service is about when and when not to search. Many people would search this structure, while many others would not. This example should at least make those who normally would have not performed the search to think twice when making that decision. Every fire is different, and decisions on the fireground need to made with all situational awareness factors in mind. Having said that, the building is not clear until we say itís clear." http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=552


    Your Mother was inside? I'm so sorry, we thought no one lived there so we did not perform a search. Kind of a crappy excuse, and it is not why we are in this line of work. Face it being a FF is a slightly dangerous job but you knew that when you signed on. There is a reason that you wear several thousand dollars worth of gear and it's not to stand around outside squirting water. "Oh I thought that we wear SCBA just for overhauling the house after the fire is out." I guess that its ok for the safety sallies and yard breathers but not for true FFs.

    Stay Safe
    Bull
    This is something that is going to come up with increasing regularity. Particularly with the double whammys of abandoned, vacant, repossessed, homes combined with the decreasing size of the responding crews. Now it seems that 3 per truck is acceptable in a lot of areas, 4 is considered normal. Its going to be an awful tough decision for the OSC to try a search with 2 people while he runs the pumps. Personally, I would simply refuse to order my men into a structure like that, in that situation. I'll never be faced with that decision, but my prayers are with those who will be

  7. #7
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    Interesting story.

  8. #8
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    What about barf bags for the smell of someone's bull$hit which is bound to be posted on here?
    Great minds think alike ... I had barf bags in there but took it out! LOL
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  9. #9
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    "Sir, I am so sorry that we didn't search for your mother. You see, we thought it was a vacant building and we are simply too afraid of fire to search a vacant building. We are sorry that she died. But we have these nifty coloring books for you from our pubed department".
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  10. #10
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    Actually ....

    This would be classified on arrival as a possibly occupied structure.

    Why?

    The trash can in front.

    The fact that there is a trash can with a trash hauler's name on it clearly demonstrates that someone here is paying a trash bill, or else, in this area, that can would promptly be removed by the hauler.

    So the fact that a trash can is at the residence would be a clear sign that the structure may be occupied, and would be searched and aggressively attacked as a potentially occupied structure with value.

    In addition, the lawn is mowed. Not many squatters mow the lawn.

    There are other indicators that we look at as well.

    The overall condition of the structure appears to be marginal, so that would be a major consideration in terms of entry, even with the indicators mentioned above of likely occupancy.

    Can't see the driveway so a I can't make a determination on the presence off a vehicle.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-19-2009 at 01:07 AM.

  11. #11
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    "Sir, I am so sorry that we didn't search for your mother. You see, we thought it was a vacant building and we are simply too afraid of fire to search a vacant building. We are sorry that she died.

    You cal it being afraid. Fine.

    We call it risk v. reward. What are the benefits of searching and operating in a vacant in our community with unlikely occupancy and structural value only v. the risk.

    Just because we have all that fancy gear, that means that we don't have to accept risk at every incident.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually ....

    This would be classified on arrival as a possibly occupied structure.

    Why?

    The trash can in front.
    There you have it, the difference between life and death in Bossier Parrish depends on whether or not you take your own trash to the dump or pay for removal! I'm surprised they don't just burn it in a barrel out back!

  13. #13
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    First reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Interesting story.
    Second reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually ....

    This would be classified on arrival as a possibly occupied structure.

    Why?

    The trash can in front.

    The fact that there is a trash can with a trash hauler's name on it clearly demonstrates that someone here is paying a trash bill, or else, in this area, that can would promptly be removed by the hauler.

    So the fact that a trash can is at the residence would be a clear sign that the structure may be occupied, and would be searched and aggressively attacked as a potentially occupied structure with value.

    In addition, the lawn is mowed. Not many squatters mow the lawn.

    There are other indicators that we look at as well.

    The overall condition of the structure appears to be marginal, so that would be a major consideration in terms of entry, even with the indicators mentioned above of likely occupancy.

    Can't see the driveway so a I can't make a determination on the presence off a vehicle.
    Third reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "Sir, I am so sorry that we didn't search for your mother. You see, we thought it was a vacant building and we are simply too afraid of fire to search a vacant building. We are sorry that she died.

    You cal it being afraid. Fine.

    We call it risk v. reward. What are the benefits of searching and operating in a vacant in our community with unlikely occupancy and structural value only v. the risk.

    Just because we have all that fancy gear, that means that we don't have to accept risk at every incident.
    I knew it. I just knew you wouldn't be able to keep your stupid piehole closed. It probably took every ounce of self-control in your body to only make that first reply. Then later on, the itching in your fingers took over, and you just couldn't stand it anymore.....Your obsessive-compulsive disorder of babbling your bull$hit excuses and theories of safety covering cowardice took over your mind yet once again. How much hand-lotion did you go throgh wringing your hands together (in between the first and second posts) in an attempt not to say anymore? Thank you for proving my theory.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "Sir, I am so sorry that we didn't search for your mother. You see, we thought it was a vacant building and we are simply too afraid of fire to search a vacant building. We are sorry that she died.

    You cal it being afraid. Fine.

    We call it risk v. reward. What are the benefits of searching and operating in a vacant in our community with unlikely occupancy and structural value only v. the risk.

    Just because we have all that fancy gear, that means that we don't have to accept risk at every incident.
    Once again...I never addressed this post to you.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    First reply:

    Second reply:

    Third reply:

    I knew it. I just knew you wouldn't be able to keep your stupid piehole closed. It probably took every ounce of self-control in your body to only make that first reply. Then later on, the itching in your fingers took over, and you just couldn't stand it anymore.....Your obsessive-compulsive disorder of babbling your bull$hit excuses and theories of safety covering cowardice took over your mind yet once again. How much hand-lotion did you go throgh wringing your hands together (in between the first and second posts) in an attempt not to say anymore? Thank you for proving my theory.
    Nah. The first post was a poke to let EVERYONE know he was watching.

    Face it. This guy is a liar. He has no idea how stupid he looks here.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  16. #16
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Nah. The first post was a poke to let EVERYONE know he was watching.

    Face it. This guy is a liar. He has no idea how stupid he looks here.
    George,

    I have begun to wonder about LA and I have devised 3 therories:

    1) He simply is that stupid.

    2) He isn't basically stupid, he is just completely clueless about the real fire service. Hence his many tales, and the fact that he will make a point and then 2 or more posts later contradict himself and then deny that he did it.

    3) He is nothing more than a pot stirrer and he throws out inane, assinine, and stupid beyond belief comments knowing people will react.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    George,

    I have begun to wonder about LA and I have devised 3 therories:

    1) He simply is that stupid.

    2) He isn't basically stupid, he is just completely clueless about the real fire service. Hence his many tales, and the fact that he will make a point and then 2 or more posts later contradict himself and then deny that he did it.

    3) He is nothing more than a pot stirrer and he throws out inane, assinine, and stupid beyond belief comments knowing people will react.
    I vote for 2, with a little 1 thrown in.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  18. #18
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    I think this whole discussion is funny, yea thatís right I said funny. Very few of you actually know what the others would do in a real world situation. Itís all what if scenarios and fantasy on the forums. Spend a year working together, and then criticize. These kinds of issues are community dependent.

    Now about that LDH........

  19. #19
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I think this whole discussion is funny, yea thatís right I said funny. Very few of you actually know what the others would do in a real world situation. Itís all what if scenarios and fantasy on the forums. Spend a year working together, and then criticize. These kinds of issues are community dependent.

    Now about that LDH........
    Really? Good, sound, nationally accepted practices, like searching, finding the base of the fire and applying water directly to it from the interior when possible, are community dependent? Dude seriously, that is as wacked as some of the nonsense LA spews.

    I don't need to spend a minute working with LA. He has exposed himself here for what he is and what he believes is proper in the fire service. Being cutting edge is all well and good as long as you are really cutting edge and not just another new wave wacko sure that everything that has been right in the fire service is now evil.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually ....

    This would be classified on arrival as a possibly occupied structure.

    Why?

    The trash can in front.

    The fact that there is a trash can with a trash hauler's name on it clearly demonstrates that someone here is paying a trash bill, or else, in this area, that can would promptly be removed by the hauler.

    So the fact that a trash can is at the residence would be a clear sign that the structure may be occupied, and would be searched and aggressively attacked as a potentially occupied structure with value.

    In addition, the lawn is mowed. Not many squatters mow the lawn.

    There are other indicators that we look at as well.

    The overall condition of the structure appears to be marginal, so that would be a major consideration in terms of entry, even with the indicators mentioned above of likely occupancy.

    Can't see the driveway so a I can't make a determination on the presence off a vehicle.
    A TRASH can? A TRASH can?

    What if they have a trash can but no smoke detectors or car in front? How many variables have to be in place for you to sort through? Your scene size up take 10 minutes going through the options? Do you wear a protocol play book on your arm like college/pro QB's wear?

    Maybe our city is the only one in America in which non paying customers steal trash cans and use them. We must be the only place in which the city mows vacant structure lots and fines the property owner. Obviously we have no one who uses public transit or catches a ride with someone else, or heaven forbid, lives in a home without owning a vehicle.

    Maybe we're the only ones who make an entry decision based on structural integrity at time of incident, involvement u/a, exposures present, or weather conditions. I guess we're stupid that way.

    To the rest of the posters/readers, I apologize for this post as I know it's just a firefighter talking to a brick wall. To those of you who know your job and do it well, stay safe on your current or next shift.

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