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    Question Curiousness Abounds Here

    Maybe because this is not a typical event, but I dont recall every hearing/reading about a non DND/DoD civilian being tried in a military court before. Along time ago, when my career was young, we had a saying that "If you were charged of a crime, and you were deemed to be "innocent" it was better to be tried by military tribunal as once all proceedings were complete, there would be no written record and your file would be "clean". However, if you were tried under a civil court and found "guilty" the sentence would be considered lighter than if from a mil court. Something about 2 years less a day in Edmonton (Leavenworth equal) being about as far from Club Med as living on the moon.

    Khadr likely to be tried by military, not civilian court: Documents

    By Steven Edwards, Canwest News Service July 21, 2009

    NEW YORK Canadian-born terrorism suspect Omar Khadr will be tried by a military commission rather than a federal civilian court if the United States proceeds with his prosecution, a U.S. Justice Department document suggests.

    A task force under U.S. President Barack Obama is in the midst of reviewing the files of all 229 Guantanamo Bay detainees, and insiders say they expect a decision on Khadr's case by early September.

    While the Obama administration could alternatively bow to Khadr's defence team's demand he be immediately repatriated, some close to the task force say it does not appear to be leaning toward that recommendation.

    Khadr, 22, faces the charge of murder among five war crimes charges under the current Guantanamo system, which former president George W. Bush established in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    The Obama administration has already angered activists on the political left by retaining the commissions, which he denounced as unfair during his campaign for the presidency.

    But opinion is split even among the Pentagon-appointed lawyers that have been on Khadr's defence team over where he would fare best: military commission or Federal Court.

    One aspect of the military setting is that the commissioners officers who serve as the jury have total discretion over the length of sentence if he is found guilty. Mandatory sentencing guidelines for the charges he faces make that impossible in the federal system, if he is convicted.

    Obama said in a May speech on security that his administration seeks to prosecute Guantanamo detainees facing charges in federal civilian courts if possible. It will send those whose cases are not appropriate for such a forum through the commissions system. Which detainees go where is determined using the Justice Department's "forum-selection" criteria, released late Monday.

    Obama's administration also introduced, and continues to propose, various rule changes that it bills as making the commissions fairer for defendants than they were during the Bush administration.

    Circumstances surrounding Khadr's capture by U.S. forces during a firefight in Afghanistan reflect criteria calling for trial by commission if repatriation is ruled out, a comparison shows.

    The document says the task force should consider the "nature and gravity" of the alleged offences, and their location. These factors, some government officials say, will relate to the battlefield setting in which Khadr was seized as a suspected operative, as opposed to a criminal lawbreaker subject to arrest warrant.

    The document also says the task force should consider the "manner in which the case was investigated and evidence gathered." According to officials and testimony during Khadr's case, the main on-site focus had been to gather intelligence on the locations of additional operatives rather than seal off the area as if it were a police-controlled crime scene.

    Such a focus would render the case more appropriate for a military commission, whose structure is designed to take account of battlefield conditions.

    The task force will also note that all the on-site witnesses are most likely to be military, as was the victim, Sgt. First Class Christopher James Speer, who died of injuries caused by a hand-grenade explosion.

    Beyond the circumstances of the alleged offence, the guidelines say the task force should consider case "efficiency" a reference to how far along the case might be.

    In Khadr's case, the prosecution says it is ready to proceed to trial as soon as the current suspension of all Guantanamo cases is lifted currently in September.

    Still, Nathan Whitling, one of Khadr's Canadian lawyers, said little can be assumed from the Justice Department guidelines.

    "There could be a juggling of the charges against Omar in which the prosecution goes with ones they feel can stick in a Federal Court, because we note that the Obama administration has expressed a preference for placing as many Guantanamo prosecutions as possible in the federal system," he said.

    "But we remain just as focused on seeking repatriation while all the time remaining cognizant that he is currently before a military commission."

    A decision is expected soon on the Canadian government's appeal of a Federal Court ruling that ordered Ottawa to seek Khadr's return to Canada from detention in Guantanamo.

    Copyright (c) Canwest News Service

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    Default good timing on this

    Thanks for posting this Rick. As it happens my class this term has been discussing very subject (military tribunals). I have spent the last few months reading the history of the use of military tribunals and the how the Supreme Court has ruled on cases going back to the Civil War and at the same time, getting a crash course in Constitutional Law. My final thesis paper will probably be on the use of military tribunals (and their relationship to homeland security). I'll have to add this case to my research and see where it leads me.

    (two of my textbooks this term are Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power and War by Other Means. (. Nice light summer reading along with the Supreme Court rulings on this issue. Keeps me out of trouble.
    Last edited by superchef; 07-22-2009 at 05:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superchef View Post
    Thanks for posting this Rick. As it happens my class this term has been discussing very subject (military tribunals). I have spent the last few months reading the history of the use of military tribunals and the how the Supreme Court has ruled on cases going back to the Civil War and at the same time, getting a crash course in Constitutional Law. My final thesis paper will probably be on the use of military tribunals (and their relationship to homeland security). I'll have to add this case to my research and see where it leads me.

    (two of my textbooks this term are Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power and War by Other Means. (. Nice light summer reading along with the Supreme Court rulings on this issue. Keeps me out of trouble.
    Hey! I thought you would be finished your last semester/classes before the summer started.

    Interesting stuff you're reading there. Sounds like fun! heheheehehee
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    I was supposed to be done but circumstances forced to spread out my classes a bit more.

    I have 5 units left (current class is a 3 unit class, then I have 2 one- unit classes to take which thankfully are short so I wil be done 11-11-2009. I am counting the days).

    This class has become one of my favorite classes. Very fascinating. Some of the cases we have been studying do involve civilians and their rights when it comes to being tried through the military justice system or the civilian one. A great deal of the discussion has revolved around the issues of whether or not the individual is associated with an enemy that the US has declared war against ( in this case, the US has declared war on terrorism and al Qaeda so if someone is caught they can be conceivably be held as an enemy combatant in the military system rather than as an alleged criminal in the criminal justice system. That is a very short answer. You might like to read the case below.

    The link below is to the case I am working on now for my next assignment in which I have to analze the case. It is a more recent case but it references a number of the previous rulings and goes into the history as well (and includes a brief discussion on Canada).


    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-1195.ZO.html
    Last edited by superchef; 07-22-2009 at 09:20 PM. Reason: added some information

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    Quote Originally Posted by superchef View Post
    I was supposed to be done but circumstances forced to spread out my classes a bit more.

    I have 5 units left (current class is a 3 unit class, then I have 2 one- unit classes to take which thankfully are short so I wil be done 11-11-2009. I am counting the days).

    This class has become one of my favorite classes. Very fascinating. Some of the cases we have been studying do involve civilians and their rights when it comes to being tried through the military justice system or the civilian one. A great deal of the discussion has revolved around the issues of whether or not the individual is associated with an enemy that the US has declared war against ( in this case, the US has declared war on terrorism and al Qaeda so if someone is caught they can be conceivably be held as an enemy combatant in the military system rather than as an alleged criminal in the criminal justice system. That is a very short answer. You might like to read the case below.

    The link below is to the case I am working on now for my next assignment in which I have to analze the case. It is a more recent case but it references a number of the previous rulings and goes into the history as well (and includes a brief discussion on Canada).


    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-1195.ZO.html

    Aaaahhh. Now I understand. So technically they are considering this guy to be a "combatant" and therefore a "soldier" for purposes of trial procedure. Thank you!

    And good luck on studies. YOU'RE ALMOST DONE!!!! 11 November is only 4 months away WOOOHHHOOO!!

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    I can certainly second what you mentioned about the harshness of Edmonton Rick. After I had been out a few years, a lad I was in with got caught with one joint of grass. This was about 1975 I think. He got cashiered, did 6 months in Edmonton and got DD. Griesbach, as it was known then, was run mainly be SMs and lifer corporals. Story was they set the mood for the day by stubbing their toe when they woke up. It was supposed to be all downhill from there. I did hear it worked though, I guess after he got out, he really straightened his life out and went onto University and last I heard, he was an architect in TO.

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    Yep, thats about it, and still is. The few guys that I know who have "travelled" the illustrious halls of DB Edmonton are not the same person going in as who came out. The Word is, the longer your initial sentence is, the better treated you are. Sounds kinda funny, but it works.

    You go in for 90 days or less they are gonna run you hard because they dont have a lot of "quality time" to spend with you. The guys who are in longer do eventually get decent privilages EARNED of course for good behaviour. Also I've known a few guys to get their sentence cut very short due to good behaviour, sometimes by only a week, but as much as a month short. I guess its a good system. Not one I would like to EVER experience, but it seems to work ok. And ya, the "Staff" are a very special lot for sure. As you say, Lifer Cpls and crusty Old SM's. And each one is as fit as any Recruit Drill Instructor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Yep, thats about it, and still is. The few guys that I know who have "travelled" the illustrious halls of DB Edmonton are not the same person going in as who came out. The Word is, the longer your initial sentence is, the better treated you are. Sounds kinda funny, but it works.

    You go in for 90 days or less they are gonna run you hard because they dont have a lot of "quality time" to spend with you. The guys who are in longer do eventually get decent privilages EARNED of course for good behaviour. Also I've known a few guys to get their sentence cut very short due to good behaviour, sometimes by only a week, but as much as a month short. I guess its a good system. Not one I would like to EVER experience, but it seems to work ok. And ya, the "Staff" are a very special lot for sure. As you say, Lifer Cpls and crusty Old SM's. And each one is as fit as any Recruit Drill Instructor.
    Yep, and about as mean as a mule with hemorrhoids

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Yep, and about as mean as a mule with hemorrhoids
    HAHAAHAAA. I'll take the seasick crocadile for $400.00, Alex.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    military justice
    As an Ex MP I am allowed to laugh myself silly at that abuse of the english language.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    As an Ex MP I am allowed to laugh myself silly at that abuse of the english language.
    Very similar to military intelligence

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Very similar to military intelligence
    THERE IS? "Military" who/what????? I think thats why Canada at least has sort of dropped the phrases "military intelligence" and such like and converted it to "J3" or "S3" or "N3" depending on whether its NDHQ, brigade or fleet level .... ummm.... intelligence.......
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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