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    Default FDNY Exam ruled discriminatory?

    Here's the link from CNN. Just curious what your opinions are.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/22/...ion/index.html

    Pete

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    Question Is there no shame? Embarassment?

    I'm sorry but this has to be an embarrassment to self-respecting people whom this suit claims to represent. What can they possibly find? That the exam had questions only whites would know? Even here in the far reaches where ethnic diversity means you ain't related by blood, we didn't have any special white kids schooling days. Maybe once in H.S. they broke up males and females, for a day which I'm convinced was to train all females how to drive men insane, but no splitting classes up by race? So I ask how is this even possible to argue with a straight face. It's this kind of BS that instills some racist thoughts in those who don't care about race or color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpete View Post
    Here's the link from CNN. Just curious what your opinions are.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/22/...ion/index.html

    Pete
    Obviously this judge did not pay attention to what just happened next door in CT.

    How is a test discriminatory? When is enough enough with this issue?

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    So is it race, ethnicity or socio-economic class? Judges should have at least a high school level ability to reason.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    It should be interesting to see how this plays out in appeals court after the New Haven case.

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    The whole idea of the Vulcan Society, BET, United Negro College Fund, NCAA, etc. is racist in my opinion.

    Flame me or not but it's the thinking of today's society that these organizations are ok but if I started the White Entertainment Television Network, the United White Guy College Fund, or the United Hispanic College Fund people will be all upset.

    Just another way to manipulate the system in their favor to give them a leg up.
    Disgusting.
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    Does anyone have another link. I would like to know what questions are objectionable.

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    Simple.....a liberal judge (picked by Bill Clinton) using his position for social engineering. Probably figured it was a way to push back at the Supreme Courts decision on the NH20. Dont expect an appeal though....I doubt the City of NY will even bother to try to do whats right.....easier to just roll over.


    By the way: -5 million spent on selective "reqruitment"
    -Personal phone calls to select groups to remind them to show for the exam
    -Free training classes for select groups
    -Free rides to and from the test for select groups
    -Many members of the select group actually hired

    But still.....its someone else's fault

    The "Vulcans" should be embarrassed of themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    The whole idea of the Vulcan Society, BET, United Negro College Fund, NCAA, etc. is racist in my opinion.

    Flame me or not but it's the thinking of today's society that these organizations are ok but if I started the White Entertainment Television Network, the United White Guy College Fund, or the United Hispanic College Fund people will be all upset.

    Just another way to manipulate the system in their favor to give them a leg up.
    Disgusting.
    Agreed....100% Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Does anyone have another link. I would like to know what questions are objectionable.

    You wont find that information.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Ironically enough....the picture used by CNN was of the Woodycrest Avenue fire where 10 immigrants died....Im sure the 15 others that lived really cared about the skin color of those risking their lives to save them.


    Oh yeah...the nozzleman was black too. I wonder how he feels to be called stupid by a judge?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Simple.....a liberal judge (picked by Bill Clinton) using his position for social engineering. Probably figured it was a way to push back at the Supreme Courts decision on the NH20. Dont expect an appeal though....I doubt the City of NY will even bother to try to do whats right.....easier to just roll over.


    By the way: -5 million spent on selective "reqruitment"
    -Personal phone calls to select groups to remind them to show for the exam
    -Free training classes for select groups
    -Free rides to and from the test for select groups
    -Many members of the select group actually hired

    But still.....its someone else's fault

    The "Vulcans" should be embarrassed of themselves
    I am sorry - I have too say with the above info, the test clearly discriminated against one group of people based on race - too bad it wasn't the group who won the lawsuit!

    It is disgusting and people need to start calling it racism. That is what it is, plain and simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    The whole idea of the Vulcan Society, BET, United Negro College Fund, NCAA, etc. is racist in my opinion.

    Flame me or not but it's the thinking of today's society that these organizations are ok but if I started the White Entertainment Television Network, the United White Guy College Fund, or the United Hispanic College Fund people will be all upset.

    Just another way to manipulate the system in their favor to give them a leg up.
    Disgusting.

    The irony is facing such organizations in the mirror. It is hard to demand equality when you keep practicing segregation.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post


    By the way: -5 million spent on selective "reqruitment"
    -Personal phone calls to select groups to remind them to show for the exam
    -Free training classes for select groups
    -Free rides to and from the test for select groups
    -Many members of the select group actually hired

    But still.....its someone else's fault
    So ACORN conducted the test then?
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Upon reading the decision...it seems to revolve around the simple "statistical disparity" or "Disparate Treatment".

    Another condescending decision that infers that blacks and Hispanics are too stupid to compete against someone with lighter skin color.

    What isn't clear is if the city should revert to a more "job related" exam more similar to ones found prior to the 1980s that the Vulcans at the time argued against, claiming they were at a disadvantage. Clearly they are claiming that the current exams weren't "job related enough"...of course forgetting that they argued in decades prior that job related exams were discriminatory thus the jobs movement towards general knowledge (g-loaded) based exams. Now the race racket types are against these general knowledge exams....???

    Would someone figure out what is the color of the sky in their world.

    Also it would seem at a glance that the transitory nature of lawyers and their inexperince in the Corp Council problably played a role much like the bumbling of the New Haven City Lawyers played in their eventual loss.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Exams are NOT rational actors....they don't choose where an applicant scores or is placed on the hiring list...the only one responsible for that result is the one taking the exam regardless of skin color.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-22-2009 at 11:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    The whole idea of the Vulcan Society, BET, United Negro College Fund, NCAA, etc. is racist in my opinion.

    Flame me or not but it's the thinking of today's society that these organizations are ok but if I started the White Entertainment Television Network, the United White Guy College Fund, or the United Hispanic College Fund people will be all upset.

    Just another way to manipulate the system in their favor to give them a leg up.
    Disgusting.
    Well said. The minorities are only segregating themselves in a world that doesn't allow segregation by forming these groups. In this day and age it's illegal to treat someone different because of their skin color. Apparently that's not good enough, they've got to have a leg up.

    I find this kind of thing an embarassment to those "minorities" who work their butt off and get the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Just another way to manipulate the system in their favor to give them a leg up.
    Disgusting.
    I agree. While there are some from every group that work hard and apply themselves there are many who don't and want the easy road. There are several promotional study groups in my state. They're expensive and time consuming but many people take these classes, including myself, to prepair for the exam. From what I personally have seen and talking to other guys it's mostly the white FF's that spend the time and money taking these classes. Other groups don't put in the time studying. It's been like that for many years.
    In the fire accademy everyone is told how long before they can take a promotional test and how they can steer their career in that direction through study and hard work..And yes there have been exams where questions have been thrown out because minoritys didn't do well on those particular ones. It was done in my city so I know it for a fact.

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    Default Same problems in law enforcement...

    Damn it! You guys have hooked me in!

    I saw an article in the Newark Star Ledger several weeks ago about the NJ State Police's lack of minority troopers. The NJSP, FDNY, and many other agencies knew before they spent millions on these recruitment platforms that they would fail because past experience proved it. When I got on the job in law enforcement, no one had to convince me that it was a "good job." I didn't know the salary, benefits, or retirement package from a hole in the wall (naive me, I know, I was single and childless). No one gave me one-on-one instruction on how to ace the written, physical, or oral boards.

    The fact of the matter is that these recruitment efforts are window-dressing attempts to reach out to the community to show compassion. I will expand on what MattyJ pointed out. If you think the FDNY or NYPD (or any other city) is racist, go to Medal Day for each agency. There you will hear deeds of daring and supreme sacrifice performed by people of all races in neighborhoods that may or may not reflect the ethnic makeup of the FD or PD. I don't know of any situation in NYC where a FF or PO asked the race/ gender/ creed of a victim before rendering aid.

    The reality is that the brothers and sisters of FD/ PD/ EMS do the job because of the nobility of their chosen professions, and no amount of money or benefits can instill that in an applicant. Either you have it you don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Oh yeah...the nozzleman was black too. I wonder how he feels to be called stupid by a judge?

    I never got how it was ok for the judges and these other groups got away with calling minorities stupid.

    Pay attention to what they are saying and the Vulcan Society and KKK have the same views of minorities, although the Vulcans think we should be giving handouts while the KKK wants to hang them. Either way they both push that minorities are intellectually inferior to whites. Shameful, MLK JR must be spinning in his grave over this drivel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    You wont find that information.
    How about this then? What kinds of questions do they ask?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Simple.....a liberal judge (picked by Bill Clinton) using his position for social engineering. Probably figured it was a way to push back at the Supreme Courts decision on the NH20. Dont expect an appeal though....I doubt the City of NY will even bother to try to do whats right.....easier to just roll over.


    By the way: -5 million spent on selective "reqruitment"
    -Personal phone calls to select groups to remind them to show for the exam
    -Free training classes for select groups
    -Free rides to and from the test for select groups
    -Many members of the select group actually hired

    But still.....its someone else's fault

    The "Vulcans" should be embarrassed of themselves
    Not for nothing, but if the classes aren't free for everyone isn't that discrimination? Maybe someone should bring a suit against that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    How about this then? What kinds of questions do they ask?
    from the 2007 test one question had a picture of firefighters out in the street with a chief among them. The picture was divided into quadrants and the question was "Which section contains the chief?" (Chief has a white helmet)

    or it had a typical analog gauge with the needle pointing to a hash mark and asked "what does the gauge read?"

    I imagine these are the types of questions that they claimed were racially biased since there were only about 20 of them on the entire 2007 test, the other being the odd situational questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    from the 2007 test one question had a picture of firefighters out in the street with a chief among them. The picture was divided into quadrants and the question was "Which section contains the chief?" (Chief has a white helmet)

    or it had a typical analog gauge with the needle pointing to a hash mark and asked "what does the gauge read?"

    I imagine these are the types of questions that they claimed were racially biased since there were only about 20 of them on the entire 2007 test, the other being the odd situational questions.
    The 2007 exam was not part of this lawsuit...this one dealt only with 1999 and 2002 exams.

    And here is an interesting tidbit.

    One of the plantifs suing...has been on the job for years. Some of the brothers on the mainland might know him.

    Also after reading this mornings articles in the papers....I find the need to point out something that doesn't get mentioned.

    ALL the large Departments the FDNY is compared to in terms of percentage of minorities have been subject to quota hiring, minority prefered lists(ie-Boston and their recently dismissed hiring scheme) or other measures (FDNY was as well many years ago for a short time) or do not have objective civil service hiring exams.

    Furthermore what isn't clear is if the numbers for departments that have seperate EMS divisions are counting them while the FDNY numbers are for firemen only.

    What is clear the ruling was founded mainly on very abstract concepts dealing mostly with statstical break downs and corelations..etc.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-23-2009 at 07:44 AM.

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    Well basing the ruling on the test results is plain stupid and idiotic. Show me the questions that are racially tilted so that one group does better than another. I'm betting they were things like

    If I have 10 apples and you take two of them how many do you have?
    How many countries have a July 4th?
    How many months have 28 days?



    Could it be that those who didn't pass are not as well prepared?

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    The 99 test was a complete joke. The only thing I thought that was out of place on that exam was a question about an SCBA, something that if you did not know anything about firefighting you might have marked it wrong. I marked two answers wrong, one I had right, and changed it, but then again, I am just a white kid from Northern Westchester.

    What bothers me is that all of these so called minority's have no right to call it discriminatory cause they are currently on the job! These exams are a complete joke.

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