Department Punishment For DWI

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

In Bossier Booby's world, the full time firefighters are nothing more than "janitors" and "maintenance men" there to "support" the volunteers.

Interesting. Another twist.

Yes, you are right in that the career members are in place to support the primary firefighting force on the department, which are the volunteers.

We have close to 90 volunteer members in various capacities v. 5 paid members.

Call them janitors if you wish, but the primary role of the career personnel are to conduct the basic maintenance and repair functions of the department (apparatus, tool and station) and perform and supervise the volunteers in the tasks required for the rating - hose, hydrant and pump testing and pre-planning.


Gonz -Why does the fact that our career people support the volunteers seem to bother you so much as it seems to be a reoccuring topic with you? Does the fact that our department sees our volunteers as more important to our operations than our paid people cause you a problem?

Your personnel should be treated equally. Period.

The same standards should apply to everyone, from training to ops to discipline.

[S8ER95Z]

Your personnel should be treated equally. Period.

The same standards should apply to everyone, from training to ops to discipline.

x2.

Sounds like a poor implementation to me bent on 'getting even' or proving something.

[Shamu2]

I have to agree with Gonzo on the one part.....

Both sides must be treated equally for training and discipline. This is the kind of stuff that helps drive wedges between the two groups.

[fire1041]

Our department terminates upon conviction. NO LICENSE, NO JOB !!

Pasco county ,Fl.

[LaFireEducator]

Everyone is treated equally, but they each have different roles.

Paid personnel are there to perform the daily mundane operational, admin, training, rating-related testing and maintenance tasks of the department. They know that when they are hired - as we only hire from within. They understand the the volunteers role is to provide the primary response force, and assist, if they choose to rideout, in the daily tasks.

If it's a significant incident, we roll the paid staff as well, but as much as possible, we utilize our volunteer firefighters as primary operational manpower and the volunteer officers as leaders and ICs.

It's a system that works very well as demonstrated by our volunteers ability to land jobs with other departments.

[rm1524]

If a volunteer loses his/her license because of a DWI how do they get to the station or the scene?

[LaFireEducator]

If a volunteer loses his/her license because of a DWI how do they get to the station or the scene?

More than likley try to catch a ride with another firefighter in the neighborhood or have his wife drive him.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Everyone is treated equally, but they each have different roles.

Yeah.. the same, only different... with differnt rules...

Paid personnel are there to perform the daily mundane operational, admin, training, rating-related testing and maintenance tasks of the department. They know that when they are hired - as we only hire from within. They understand the the volunteers role is to provide the primary response force, and assist, if they choose to rideout, in the daily tasks. [/quote]

So you are admitting the paid personnel are nothing more than janitors and maintenance men.

If it's a significant incident, we roll the paid staff as well, but as much as possible, we utilize our volunteer firefighters as primary operational manpower and the volunteer officers as leaders and ICs.

Your system is *** backwards. The paid personnel are already in the station and can roll to an incident. YOu have to wait for your volunteer personnel to drop whatevber they are doing, drive to the station,get on the rig and respond, wasting valuable time. As for your "live in" volunteers... they should be maintaining the equipment and doing the "daily mundane" in exchange for their living arrangements.

It's a system that works very well as demonstrated by our volunteers ability to land jobs with other departments.

I'm sure they cannot wait to get out of your hellhole of a fire department. How many career staff choose to leave?

[rm1524]

Can I have a ride because I can't drive because i'm a dumb***** and got a DWI? Why keep a person that has no value to the department.

[LaFireEducator]

Yeah.. the same, only different... with differnt rules...

Paid personnel are there to perform the daily mundane operational, admin, training, rating-related testing and maintenance tasks of the department. They know that when they are hired - as we only hire from within. They understand the the volunteers role is to provide the primary response force, and assist, if they choose to rideout, in the daily tasks. [/quote]

So you are admitting the paid personnel are nothing more than janitors and maintenance men.

Admitting that yes, much of thier job is to maintain and repair the tools and apparatus, perform station tasks such as electrical and structural work, conduct pump and hose testing as well as conduct preplans. To me that's not the work of a janitor. To me that's the work of a mechanic, electrician, builder, and firefighter responsible for fire rleated testing and admin tasks. That could just be me though.

Thier primary task is maintaience and admin. It's jsut amazing that somehow you are so offended by that concept.

Your system is *** backwards. The paid personnel are already in the station and can roll to an incident. YOu have to wait for your volunteer personnel to drop whatevber they are doing, drive to the station,get on the rig and respond, wasting valuable time. As for your "live in" volunteers... they should be maintaining the equipment and doing the "daily mundane" in exchange for their living arrangements.

Interesting, as you know nothing about our district.

Almost 200 square miles and 7 stations.

In most cases, a volunteer responding from home or in his vehicle in the district will arrive on the scene of an EMS incident sooner than the paid and ride-out staff and medic crew from Central Station. Same with an engine from one of the volunteer satellitte stations in the bulk of our district.

All volunteers responding from home go direct to the scene for medical calls. For fire calls, drivers go to the closest station and non-drivers go direct to the scene. There is no waiting at the station for personnel to arrive.

In the rural areas, volunteers from that area going POV will beat the paid staff and parish medical unit staffed at Central by 2-4 minutes. In the core area, it will be 1-2 minutes. In a fire, the local engine staffed by a vollie driver will generally arrive 60-90 seconds ahead of the engine from Central. Vollie manpower will be on-scene via POV prior to the arrival of the engine and in many cases will have the first line working before the arrival of paid staff.

The live-in volunteers are required to put in 45 hours a week. They assist with the tasks if they are doing shift time at Central. They also have assigned tasks at thier stations. Personnel riding out at Central are also required to participate in all maiantainence and testing tasks assigned to the full-time and part-time day firefighter that day. Doing the mundane stuff is part of being at the station.

As I have said, on a typical day we will have 4 paid personnel in Central Station and 4-8 volunteers riding out. Only makes sense to use them on runs and let thier skills and leadership talents develop through response rather than use paid personnel assigned to tasks that already have a firm grasp on those skills. Makes no sense to not utilize the volunteers as that will deminish thier interest and cause them to leave, which may force us to hire additional paid staff, which in the long run, would be a very bad thing.

That is exactly what is happening in bordering districts as the paid personnel are the primary responders and the volunteers are being left out in the cold.

[GeorgiaEVT]

As a paid personnel and a Level 2 EVT I take offense to the reference to 'mudane daily activities' and 'janitors'. No I don't know how your department operates and it really doesn't matter. You need to step back and look at the big picture. Without the 'mundane janitors' you would not be able to perform your duties whether you are paid or volunteer. If not for us you would have to sit at the station and do ALL the paperwork after each call, you would have to spend more time at the station doing the 'mundane tasks' that aren't as glorious as holding the nozzle. Hell if it weren't for the 'mundane tasks' that I do the truck wouldn't even get out of the station. Some of you need a reality check.

As for the DUI, the last time anyone here got one the Chief went to the Sheriff and managed to get the charge reduced to wreckless driving. But not everyone gets that kind of treatment. We had a FF (paid) show up to work one morning smelling of alcohol. He hadn't had a drink in 12 hours but he still smelled like a whiskey bottle. They had him tested and he came back with alcohol still in his system (I forget what the level was but it was no where near the legal limit - under). He was promptly escorted home and releived of his job.

[ewilson224]

We had a guy recently get one, but was not convicted... If he would have been convicted, lost his job, retirement, etc.
Not a good thing...find a driver

[Kobersteen]

This is one of the few things that I am embarrassed at how it is handled in my department. I may have some of the order of things wrong, but the basics are spot on.

If you are cited for DUI/DWI (not convicted, mind you), you are called up to the Fire Chiefs office and you are given two choices: enter a disciplinary diversion program or be fired.

The disciplinary diversion program starts with a visit to an addiction specialist who determines if you have a "problem". Regardless of what this person says (problem vs. no problem), you attend AA meetings once a week and are not permitted to consume alcohol for the rest of your career. You are randomly tested (hair test) and terminated if the test comes out positive.

This does not change if you are acquitted of the charge of DUI/DWI.

This became more complicated about 6 years ago when the Virginia Department of Health changed the statute to read:

12 VAC 5-31-910:

B. EMS personnel may not act as an operator of an EMS vehicle if they have been convicted upon a charge of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs, convicted of a felony or assigned to any alcohol safety action program or driver alcohol rehabilitation program pursuant to § 18.2-271.1 hit and run, or operating on a suspended or revoked license within the past five years. A person having any of these convictions in Virginia or another state may be eligible for reinstatement as an operator after five years and after successful completion of an approved emergency vehicle operator's course (EVOC) within the year prior to reinstatement.

Our AFC of Operations at the time took that to mean that if you get convicted, you lose your EMT card. Then, when questioned, said that if you can't drive, you can't be employed by our FRD, which I know is bunk.

I would love to see this change to a graduated (or progressive) discipline based on what the mandated addiction specialist says, but the gears turn slow when it comes to 'easing' discipline.