1. #1

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    Default Slowing or stopping Extension.

    Stopping extension from building to building through air spaces between structures has been a problem since the dawn of firefighting.

    I have been kicking an idea around for a while now that may help remedy this long standing problem.

    First connect to the roof standpipe outlet of the buildings on each side of the fire building with one length of hose line with a three way or four way y at the end. Connect the needed amount of lines to those lines and put a Bresnan type cellar nozzle on each line. Drop these over the edge of the roof cap into the air space to create a waterfall that will both cool the atmosphere between structures and protect the adjoining structures.

    If a roof standpipe is not available move a supply line up an Ariel Ladder.

    Make sure to place a salvage cover or some other protection on the edge so as not to allow the vibration of the line cause damage to the line.

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    We have a homemade device that goes on the of a 2 1/2 line. It looks like a plate welded on the end of a connector. A small slot is cut in it. It puts out a fan shape spray of water that has a 25' to 30' radius.

    Original thought was they could just make a water curtain, but it didn't block radiant heat. Now we tilt it so it sprays against the protected surface. Works extremely well. Because of its shape, there is almost no reaction force. The line can be laid on the ground. We monitor it, but don't need to really tend it.

    It gets pulled off of the engine for a real fire, about every 2-3 years. We have about 5 or 6 of them if we needed to cover a large area. Puts out too much water for the typical residential fire. Only needed on commercial fires.

    I don't see why something similar wouldn't work from the roof of a commercial structure.

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    We use our CAFS engine. Spray foam onto extension building while fighting fire in origanal building. Mix the foam so it clings to the building. We have done drills with the foam where it holds for hours. Also seen it re foam days later when it rains and the building gets wet again.

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    Default op

    ummmmmm.......WHAT????
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    Water application in between structures in the "air" space is not effective in protecting exposures. Water or foam needs to be applied directly to the structure trying to be protected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Used the Caf system today, not for an exposure problem, but on a stubborn boiler room fire. 1 gal of foam, 280 gals water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedog4 View Post
    Drop these over the edge of the roof cap into the air space to create a waterfall that will both cool the atmosphere between structures and protect the adjoining structures.
    Unfortunately it isn't the atmosphere that needs to be cooled. As others have said, water curtains look like they would work but they don't. Radiant heat from the fire will pass right through it. Water needs to be applied directly to the exposure to cool it.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I really don't see the big deal....many departments have been dealing with extension for hundreds of years. Sometimes fire is so advanced that you have to give up a few buildings to stop it. The best innovation to combat fast moving fires in cocklofts and other types of voids and alleys is the tower ladder. Way to many variables exist that will have your ops idea fail time and time again. Manpower and time are not the privilege of 95% of the departments in the US. First off you do not need to place a tarp or cover in the ladder to protect the line.....bad idea anyway, especially if that ladder needs to be used. Just hose strap the ladder to the rungs and its set. The "roof standpipe" you speak of is the test outlets. You are not going to use that to make a spider of lines to flow a cellar distributor. You will not achieve the water flow needed. The bresnan flows up to 350gpm, you can't flow 4 or 6 of them with only 2 engine feeding the outlet....and the risers will most likey fail from the pressure needed to move that much water vertically. If extension in a cockloft is your worry, then get the the adjoinings and pulls ceilings and operate lines. If its and ally, the 1.75 inch is plenty fine. Get to the seat of a fire and you'll stop extension.

    Water curtains on buildings are a useless piece of gear, they do not put out big enough water droplets to absorb BTUs. A handline, or multiversal will put out more and should be used instead.

    My department also developed a tactic way back in the day using the Bresnan and a ladder. But since the tower ladder entered the fire service I don't think the bresnan/ladder trick has been used.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 07-30-2009 at 05:32 PM.
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    The BEST exposure protection includes extinguishing the fire.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedog4 View Post
    Stopping extension from building to building through air spaces between structures has been a problem since the dawn of firefighting.

    I have been kicking an idea around for a while now that may help remedy this long standing problem.

    First connect to the roof standpipe outlet of the buildings on each side of the fire building with one length of hose line with a three way or four way y at the end. Connect the needed amount of lines to those lines and put a Bresnan type cellar nozzle on each line. Drop these over the edge of the roof cap into the air space to create a waterfall that will both cool the atmosphere between structures and protect the adjoining structures.

    If a roof standpipe is not available move a supply line up an Ariel Ladder.

    Make sure to place a salvage cover or some other protection on the edge so as not to allow the vibration of the line cause damage to the line.

    Maybe we could surround the buildings with a bunch of FIT-5's...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The BEST exposure protection includes extinguishing the fire.
    Amazing how that works huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The BEST exposure protection includes extinguishing the fire.
    Priority number 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The BEST exposure protection includes extinguishing the fire.
    End thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The BEST exposure protection includes extinguishing the fire.
    There you are, do this and don't worry about exposure.

    Best answer yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    There you are, do this and don't worry about exposure.

    Best answer yet.
    I have a feeling that is not the point the Lt. was trying to make...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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