1. #1
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    Default Front page of FH - Lessons Learned from Calif. Helmet Cam Video

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL PELUSO
    Firehouse.com News

    Kevin Trost, a retired captain with the department, said the department learned many lessons from the incident, and the video; which he shared with attendees at Firehouse Expo in Baltimore last Friday.

    Three firefighters and a captain were trapped on the second floor of the single family home while battling the Oct. 7, 2008 blaze.

    All four made it out, but the captain would suffer serious burns to his hands and neck and was transported to the University of California Davis Medical Center for treatment. The three firefighters were transported with less severe injuries and were released that day.

    Firefighters were alerted that Tuesday morning at approximately 9:29 a.m. for a report of a structure fire located at 17 Stilt Court. Unfortunately, the fire occurred in the only district in the city that didn't have an engine or truck in it. Because of this, it took Engine 15 six minutes and seven seconds to arrive.

    After Engine 15 arrived on the scene at approximately 9:35 a.m., the crew began to initiate an aggressive interior attack. Engine 18 soon arrived on the scene and assumed command.

    As smoke conditions changed, Trost said firefighters became separated.

    "If your response is over four or five minutes, you have to come in with a different mindset to fight the fire," he said, adding that at that point an aggressive interior attack wasn't the right strategy to take.

    At approximately 9:46 a.m., the first "Mayday" was transmitted. Four minutes prior to the transmission, a flashover occurred on the first floor. The three firefighters and the captain were still on the second floor and the conditions quickly deteriorated.

    The firefighters made it down the stairs and out the front door, but the captain retreated to a corner on the second floor and rolled up into a ball, according to Trost. He eventually made a run for it, down the stairs and out the back sliding glass door.

    "At that point he's in survival mode and he doesn't want to suffocate," he said.

    Trost noted that every department can learn something from this incident. The dwellings in the neighborhood were new construction and the response was similar to that seen in most cities. The most important thing, he said, is to make sure everyone is on the same page and that the proper plan is put in place.

    "It is critical that crew continuity is maintained at all times. Everyone in your department must know what they're doing."

    He also said that as much as a department trains, nothing can prepare you completely for responding to a fire. Training and learning from incidents such as this one are important, Trost said, but the only true way to become a better firefighter is through experience.

    "The training ground is not where you validate what you've learned. The training ground can't recreate the anxiety firefighters face at a real fire."
    Video can be seen on front page or here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6ijzkhPAI



    What was the lesson - How to look busy, but never step into the fire building?
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    The firefighters made it down the stairs and out the front door, but the captain retreated to a corner on the second floor and rolled up into a ball, according to Trost.
    Ok, I'll be honest...I have not watched the video.

    But, can anyone tell me why the 3 FF's separated from the Captain?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Ok, I'll be honest...I have not watched the video.

    But, can anyone tell me why the 3 FF's separated from the Captain?
    Maybe because they weren't holding onto each others boots like IFSTA says and were actually performing a search under tough conditions? Let's not pretend that not being in full contact at every moment doesn't happen more often than most would like. Not to mention 4 FFer's searching on the floor of a SFD? Certainly calls for splitting up to cover more area. Perhaps the Capt was ging to be the last man out and by the time the first three made it down he thought going the other way was a better idea. Watch the video, I'm sure it wasn't pretty where these guys were.

    On another note, it would be nice to know what function the camera equipped guy has? Seemed to be able to order lines deployed but then got hands on, yet never went in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    On another note, it would be nice to know what function the camera equipped guy has? Seemed to be able to order lines deployed but then got hands on, yet never went in?
    Exactly! Not to mention all the other guys that were standing around apathetic to the entire situation - even after the mayday.

    Seriously unimpressive.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Maybe because they weren't holding onto each others boots like IFSTA says and were actually performing a search under tough conditions? Let's not pretend that not being in full contact at every moment doesn't happen more often than most would like.
    Gee really? Never heard of such a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not to mention 4 FFer's searching on the floor of a SFD? Certainly calls for splitting up to cover more area.
    True, but with 4, generally the split would be 2 and 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Perhaps the Capt was ging to be the last man out and by the time the first three made it down he thought going the other way was a better idea.
    And yet, according to author, went to a corner of a room...and then went down the same stairs. Seems odd.

    And no, not criticizing, just trying to find out what happened.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I thought everyone was just going to rehab in the front while those guys cooked upstaris. That may be the worst reaction to a MAYDAY ever. They walked around like that sucks they are going to die; turn down your radio so we don't have to listen to them anymore.

    "If your response is over four or five minutes, you have to come in with a different mindset to fight the fire," he said, adding that at that point an aggressive interior attack wasn't the right strategy to take.
    Intresting, because that looked like an attackable fire not a surrounnd and drown.


    The firefighters made it down the stairs and out the front door, but the captain retreated to a corner on the second floor and rolled up into a ball, according to Trost. He eventually made a run for it, down the stairs and out the back sliding glass door.
    I would have thought the split would be 2-2 also. Sounds like he didn't think the ffs had the right idea going down the stairs, so he stayed.


    One lesson learned- Do something with the fence gate. It got old fast watching him charge through it only to fly back on the hose or his crew following him.
    Last edited by TNFF319; 07-31-2009 at 03:56 PM.
    FF/Paramedic

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    Opps sorry for the double post. My old pc got hung up.
    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 07-31-2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: double post
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Uhhh, 1-1/2 minutes was enough for me to see the camera guy was a coward!


    Lt-34 how bad did you guys get it last night?

    Saw on the news a lot near cardova and in miss.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    That guy did an AWFUL lot of walking around for accomplishing nothing.

    I agree, very unimpressive.

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    I don't know what his assigned position was, nor do I know what his orders were. Matter of fact, neither do any of your armchair heros who are calling him a coward. I can understand the upstairs search due to sleeping areas, But I think it could been better accomplished by a 2 man or 4 man team from the roof. Other crew can take on the bottom. need at least 2 guys outside on the roof for assistance. That house will be kindling very soon as from the moment they started, it was gone. Fire and/or heavy smoke on three sides, some smoke on the front. Glad to hear the Capt is OK, but why would any actual firefighter cast aspirations on this mans courage . Totally beyond me,

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    I saw the video and what I can tell, the camera dude never went any farther into the structure than he had too. In fact, not being a armchair hero but a career BC, this guy would have been given a long and hard talk to, after this inceident was over and members back in quarters. All he gave to this incident was nothing!

    I wouldn't say he was a coward, but something more like a slug.

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    Talking

    if he had gone inside, we would not be able to view his cool video. duh! i mean come one he spend some coin on that thing. They dont get a good fire like that everyday why take the chance of ruining a chance to video tape it. Or take a chance of messing the camera up. It might be hot and smokey in there, it might mess up the lens!

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    Or he could have been the first in Captain and was assigned Ops. Those guys typically do not go in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    What was the lesson - How to look busy, but never step into the fire building?
    This video is quite possibly the BEST "freelancing" demonstration that I have ever seen recorded.

    This guy accomplished nothing except demonstrate the ability to be in 30 places at one time while accomplishing nothing. I've seen firefighters at fires "hang back" trying to avoid the good stuff and I've even seen a few do the old "my SCBA is messed up" retreat, but this video takes the cake.

    If you ever want to show inexperienced and/or rookie firefighter what NOT to do on a fireground, this is THE definitive video.

    I wonder what would have happened if he would've gotten in a jam and needed help? I'd say it was a safe bet that not one person on this fireground would have known where to even think about beginning a search and/or rescue.
    rjtoc2

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    ***The above post (s) is/are MY opinion and do/does not necessarily reflect the views, positions, or opinions of neither my employer nor my IAFF Local.***

    Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof, and make counter accusations.

    A lack of planning on your behalf does NOT create an emergency on my behalf.

    When all is said and done, alot more is said than done

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Or he could have been the first in Captain and was assigned Ops. Those guys typically do not go in.
    That could be a possibility I guess, but his video caught a lot more than just him not going in. Looks like there was plenty of that to go around.

    The (apparent) Captain getting undressed while telling camera guy that someone inside called a mayday takes the cake though.

    And I am sorry, but this house was not lost when they showed up.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    "If your response is over four or five minutes, you have to come in with a different mindset to fight the fire," he said, adding that at that point an aggressive interior attack wasn't the right strategy to take."

    This is the part that gets me, while the house was well involved it wasn't gone yet. And If the conditions were to bad for an aggressive attack wouldn't they be even worst for a rescue? so why start upstairs? I can here chainsaws running so how did they vent this baby, did they pull the fire upstairs? As always, there seems to be more questions than answers when we only see one part of it. So it's really hard to say, but if you think there might be somebody (still alive) upstairs.. Why not get a quick knock down downstairs, 'control' the stairway with a hose line, and maybe horizontal ventilation on the ground floor (at the seat of the fire) to try to relieve the conditions in the stairway.. Or stand around...

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    I hate to jump on this... but really, what was his assignment on the fire?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    That could be a possibility I guess, but his video caught a lot more than just him not going in. Looks like there was plenty of that to go around.

    The (apparent) Captain getting undressed while telling camera guy that someone inside called a mayday takes the cake though.

    And I am sorry, but this house was not lost when they showed up.
    I'll have to disagree with you Lt Memphis regards the loss. They were 6+ minutes on arriving, get 2 more for gearing up and pulling lines, with the ammount and area of smoke showing, plus a flashover occuring shortly, there would have been a great deal of heat inside and in fact there was flames coming through in a couple of areas. Structurally, the framing and joists on the ground floor, plus all electric, plumbing and insulation would have to be replaced, I'm sure the insurance company would rip it down to foundation and start over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    I saw the video and what I can tell, the camera dude never went any farther into the structure than he had too. In fact, not being a armchair hero but a career BC, this guy would have been given a long and hard talk to, after this inceident was over and members back in quarters. All he gave to this incident was nothing!

    I wouldn't say he was a coward, but something more like a slug.
    You sound more like a Monday morning quaterback than a BC. In your dept, do your personnel just rush off the truck and run inside so you can stand outside in your cool White Helmet and tell everyone how your people are all hardened "Ghetto firefighters" Lots of guys on here are quick to yap if someone questions an accident or incident without complete knowledge, but are very quick to condemn someone else based on a helmet cam without any information as to his orders or assignment. I believe this was in Sacremento so this should be a pretty good sized career FD. Talk about throwing someone under the bus!

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    It seemed the like the biggest lesson to be learned was to "put water on the fire". You can't operate over an uncontrolled 1st floor fire like that for very long without something bad happening. One of the several 1 3/4" stretched through the garage and directly in the room that was on fire would have seemed to make things much better for everyone.

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    Bryan,what's this two minutes to get geared up? We're "geared up" when we step off the rig.30 seconds to get a hose load off. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    It seemed the like the biggest lesson to be learned was to "put water on the fire". You can't operate over an uncontrolled 1st floor fire like that for very long without something bad happening. One of the several 1 3/4" stretched through the garage and directly in the room that was on fire would have seemed to make things much better for everyone.
    I totally agree. HOLD THE STAIRS in sfd's that is the engines priority, and put the fire out.

    I wonder of there were any problems with the initial hose lines that hampered getting water. Pump issues, bursts, low flow?
    Originally Posted by madden01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Bryan,what's this two minutes to get geared up? We're "geared up" when we step off the rig.30 seconds to get a hose load off. T.C.
    I may be off by 30 secs, depends on dept, but several posters have said they don packs on site. Also, from time the truck stops, officer size up, orders, hoses pulled, nozzles at door, i don't think I'm probably too far off. I probably worded it wrong, should have said time to initial entry. Secondly, according to the original article, there was a flashover 4 minutes into the response. Theres one helluva lot of heat built up, that's why I think that house was toast by the time the guys got there.

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    In a rural area where we work, we do a lot of the 7 to 10 minutes out. either it's about to flash or it just did. either way there is considerably more heat and superheated gas's. If we go with the 2 minutes till entry and it flashed 4 min into it, that gives them 2 minutes to either vent or cool the room down. That would indicate to me that there was probably a very aggressive/low thermal barrier on the ground floor at arrival, which screams iminate danger. Did they charge through the ground floor to get upstairs or did they enter via the second story? It would have been a ruff ride in the stairway even at this point. And the more I look at it, the less I see a true aggressive attack anyway. In fact, that's exactly what it needed. And while the house was probably totaled out from the insurance stand point, If it's still structurally sound "We're going in" ....


    P. S On the coward remarks, all I got to say Is it took a lot of balls to submit this video for review from the entire world. And to do so for training purposes, No sir... I don't see any cowards here. Just some brothers that recognize they made some mistakes and are willing to learn from them. Just because they do it a little different then we do, doesn't mean they wrong/stupid/cowards/ or anything.... Just different.. My .02 psi

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoloBlitz View Post
    In a rural area where we work, we do a lot of the 7 to 10 minutes out. either it's about to flash or it just did. either way there is considerably more heat and superheated gas's. If we go with the 2 minutes till entry and it flashed 4 min into it, that gives them 2 minutes to either vent or cool the room down. That would indicate to me that there was probably a very aggressive/low thermal barrier on the ground floor at arrival, which screams iminate danger. Did they charge through the ground floor to get upstairs or did they enter via the second story? It would have been a ruff ride in the stairway even at this point. And the more I look at it, the less I see a true aggressive attack anyway. In fact, that's exactly what it needed. And while the house was probably totaled out from the insurance stand point, If it's still structurally sound "We're going in" ....


    P. S On the coward remarks, all I got to say Is it took a lot of balls to submit this video for review from the entire world. And to do so for training purposes, No sir... I don't see any cowards here. Just some brothers that recognize they made some mistakes and are willing to learn from them. Just because they do it a little different then we do, doesn't mean they wrong/stupid/cowards/ or anything.... Just different.. My .02 psi
    Some very good points raised Solo and good on you for sticking up for the guys. Just a question, if you feel the house is gone from an insurance standpoint, unless theres a chance of trapped occupants, why in the name of God would you send guys in? I really have always felt that it was only worth committing my people to save lives. Iron and wood can be replaced. A Father, Husband, Son or Daughter cannot.

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