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  1. #1
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    Default 89 yoa Fire Police hit at scene

    I got this from Chief Goldfelder today:

    A Firefighter from Warren County (N.J.) was struck and seriously injured by a drunk driver early this morning. Last evening, FF Charles Christine, 86, of the Belvidere VFD Fire Police, was assisting traffic in an area with wires down. Around midnight, FF Christine was leaning against a pickup truck parked perpendicular to the roadway with the emergency warning lights on, when a car driven by Daniel Tigue crashed into the pickup truck. FF Christine was knocked to the ground during the accident and suffered serious head and arm injuries. He was transferred to Saint Luke's Hospital in Bethlehem, Pa., where he was listed in fair condition today. DUI Tigue was arrested and charged with aggravated assault and driving while intoxicated and was transferred to the Warren County Jail and held on bail. We wish FF Christine a rapid recovery.
    All I have to say is that this was most certainly a horrible incident. but...

    What the hell is an 86 year old doing at a fire scene?

    Are you kidding me? 86 years old?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.


  2. #2
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    George.. I wholeheartedly agree!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I have to agree. This is crazy. You have to wonder if he was a bit more agile would he been able to get out of the way. Or perhaps he might have been more alert. This doesn't excuse the action of the driver, but really, 86 YO on scene is nuts.

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    I'm not sure if it would apply, but do all depts including Vol have to carry workers comp and accident and disability insurance. I just can't see them allowing an 86 year old to be working, even as a volunteer, at an accident or fire scene.

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    Forum Member CrnkB8's Avatar
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    What a coincidence. The home page on this site has the accident in PA. Yes, it sounds a little strange to have an elderly person on the fire scene, but maybe he was still capable of doing traffic control. Remember, we cannot discriminate against age.

    To answer the previous question. Yes, I believe they must carry workers comp and accident/disability insurance (but did they??)

    Anyway, best wishes to a brother.

  6. #6
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Humpf!........

    You don't want to get me started......... When my

    DOCTOR

    Says that I should stop going to Emergency Scenes, I will.

    Until then, I guess we'll just have to disagree............

    And, our best wishes to the brother for a Speedy Recovery....

    And our Heartfelt Desire that the slimeball that struck him will rot in Jail....
    Last edited by hwoods; 08-02-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrnkB8 View Post
    What a coincidence. The home page on this site has the accident in PA. Yes, it sounds a little strange to have an elderly person on the fire scene, but maybe he was still capable of doing traffic control. Remember, we cannot discriminate against age.

    To answer the previous question. Yes, I believe they must carry workers comp and accident/disability insurance (but did they??)

    Anyway, best wishes to a brother.
    Valid point, and I guess in a situation like this, had he been 46, the results may well have been the same. I hope he recovers fully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    You don't want to get me started......... When my

    DOCTOR

    Says that I should stop going to Emergency Scenes, I will.

    Until then, I guess we'll just have to disagree............

    And, our best wishes to the brother for a Speedy Recovery....

    And our Heartfelt Desire that the slimeball that struck him will rot in Jail....
    Thanks chief, could not agree more!!!
    Ed

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    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    While I can agree to some extent on George's comments there are two things that "over rule" them:

    1) some of the smaller rural depts dont have the population or the inclination for younger members, so the Old Guys step up (or stay) as the case may be;

    2) having a person like FF Christine on the scene, helping with traffic control helps by freeing up one of the Yung'ns to do the heavy stuff.

    OH YA! And I would NOT want to be the one to tell Chief Woods or anyone else like him "I'm sorry Sir, but you are just not young enough to be in this fire ground." I'll save that one for someone with greater intestinal fortitude and a lot less brains than myself.

    Best wishes to FF Christine on a speedy recovery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I got this from Chief Goldfelder today:



    All I have to say is that this was most certainly a horrible incident. but...

    What the hell is an 86 year old doing at a fire scene?

    Are you kidding me? 86 years old?
    he is Fire police, around here that makes your duties on scene limited to traffic control, road blocking, setting up landing zones for helicopters, and other non attack based roles. I could see an 86 year old still being able to hold a sign on the side of the road.

  11. #11
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    First of all, Harve, you ain't 86 years old. I, for one, hope that when you are, you are physically capable of going to fires. However, we will still have the argument that an 86 year old has absolutely no business in the world being anywhere near an emergency scene performing emergency duties.

    Unless there is an extreme exception, there comes a point-way before 86-where a person does not have the phyiscal strength, does not have the mental acuity, does not have the reflexes and does not have the judgement to safely and effectively operate as a member of a fire department team in any capacity. And it doesn't matter what you call him, or how shorthanded the FD is.

    This is another example of where, volunteers scream about wanting to be considered professionals, but when the rubber meets the road, they want to be held to a different standard. There are mandatory retirement ages for a reason.

    And yes, they have a far greater chance of getting hurt or killed.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    You don't want to get me started......... When my

    DOCTOR

    Says that I should stop going to Emergency Scenes, I will.

    Until then, I guess we'll just have to disagree............

    And, our best wishes to the brother for a Speedy Recovery....

    And our Heartfelt Desire that the slimeball that struck him will rot in Jail....
    Good point. Which begs the question. Did they have annual physicals?

  13. #13
    Forum Member CrnkB8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    You don't want to get me started......... When my

    DOCTOR

    Says that I should stop going to Emergency Scenes, I will.
    I'm throwing the Bull$h!t Flag on this one. We all know darn well IF and/or when that happens, you're still going to go!!

  14. #14
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    When I am 86, I will NOT be at a fire scene. I will be playing poker and looking at HSP. (high speed porn)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Unless there is an extreme exception, there comes a point-way before 86-where a person does not have the phyiscal strength, does not have the mental acuity, does not have the reflexes and does not have the judgement to safely and effectively operate as a member of a fire department team in any capacity. And it doesn't matter what you call him, or how shorthanded the FD is.
    I'm not saying I agree with the situation, but I'll bet a 22yo would say the same thing about someone your age...

  16. #16
    Forum Member CrnkB8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    First of all, Harve, you ain't 86 years old. I, for one, hope that when you are, you are physically capable of going to fires. However, we will still have the argument that an 86 year old has absolutely no business in the world being anywhere near an emergency scene performing emergency duties.

    Unless there is an extreme exception, there comes a point-way before 86-where a person does not have the phyiscal strength, does not have the mental acuity, does not have the reflexes and does not have the judgement to safely and effectively operate as a member of a fire department team in any capacity. And it doesn't matter what you call him, or how shorthanded the FD is.

    This is another example of where, volunteers scream about wanting to be considered professionals, but when the rubber meets the road, they want to be held to a different standard. There are mandatory retirement ages for a reason.

    And yes, they have a far greater chance of getting hurt or killed.
    Point taken. But who is going to make that call? NFPA, USFA, NVFC, Dept of Labor, Social Security, AARP, family doctor, dept doctor (if they can afford one)? Youíll have a hard time pressing the NVFC to draw a line for maximum age. When that happens, whoís next? The 70 year olds? Then the 60 year olds?

    Since heart attack/cardiac problems are the #1 killer of firefighters, might as well go for weight. How many 20, 30, 40 year olds do you see that are overweight and have no business being in turnouts? Their hearts are a time bomb waiting to explode.

    I agree with thisÖ..

    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    While I can agree to some extent on George's comments there are two things that "over rule" them:

    1) some of the smaller rural depts dont have the population or the inclination for younger members, so the Old Guys step up (or stay) as the case may be;

    2) having a person like FF Christine on the scene, helping with traffic control helps by freeing up one of the Yung'ns to do the heavy stuff.
    For some depts., this is a harsh reality and you have to make do with what you have. I have seen some 60-70 year olds quite capable of setting up rehab/bottle changing station that frees up a fully qualified/capable firefighter to do other fire ground tasks. Some of the "elders" help the IC at the command post keep track of fire ground operations.

    Iím not saying we should ignore the risks or go down to the retirement home and have a membership drive, but we must know how to and how not to use personnel.

  17. #17
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zackman1801 View Post
    he is Fire police, around here that makes your duties on scene limited to traffic control, road blocking, setting up landing zones for helicopters, and other non attack based roles. I could see an 86 year old still being able to hold a sign on the side of the road.
    I think we all understand the concept. But it is a terrible idea that I hate seeing departments do. It happens all the time. The guy is old but nobody wants to see him leave or not be able to participate, which is really sweet and all. But to take the elderly and place them THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE ON THE SCENE is not thinking with your head. Put the least mobile and agile person IN THE MIDDLE OF TRAFFIC. It is just asking for this to happen.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  18. #18
    Forum Member SFD13's Avatar
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    I've seen some elderly people in better shape than people in their 20s. There is a 92 year old who stopped swimming across the lake and back (approx 2 mile swim)when he turned 90. Now he only swims half way and back. As long as they have the ability, I say go for it.
    "My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea." - Tommy Douglas 1961.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I got this from Chief Goldfelder today:



    All I have to say is that this was most certainly a horrible incident. but...

    What the hell is an 86 year old doing at a fire scene?

    Are you kidding me? 86 years old?


    I'm sure the family and those close to him appreciate you concern, sympathy and your hope for a fast recovery.

  20. #20
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    You don't want to get me started......... When my

    DOCTOR

    Says that I should stop going to Emergency Scenes, I will.

    Until then, I guess we'll just have to disagree............

    And, our best wishes to the brother for a Speedy Recovery....

    And our Heartfelt Desire that the slimeball that struck him will rot in Jail....
    exactly, Harve is like 90 or so? and he can still run circles around younger guys. so as long as his doctor says he can do the job, who are you to say otherwise? in fact, isn't it considered age discrimination if you tell someone they can't do the job because of their age?

    but lets look at this isolated incident: if the person who was hit was 22 years old, would you be saying no 22 year olds should be permitted on the fire scenes?

    He was hit by a dunk driver; his age has NOTHING to do with the situation, as it can (and probably has) happened to both firefighters and fire police members of all ages.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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