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    Default New firefighter also a sex offender

    While I am sure no one wants a real sex offender on there dept, this case from Delaware makes me think someone somewhere is just plain stupid.

    An 18-year-old woman was turned down for a job when it was discovered that she was convicted of sex crimes at age 10.
    Ellis was charged in 2001, when she was 10, with improperly fondling -- and in one case performing a sex act on -- other children over several incidents involving a 6-year-old boy and three girls between the ages of 5 and 9.

    She later failed to abide by the conditions of her release and ultimately was judged delinquent of one count of second-degree rape and four counts of second-degree unlawful sexual conduct and ordered to register as a Tier 3 sex offender.

    She asked to have her juvenile record expunged in 2007, after she said she was terminated from a position as a junior member of a fire department after it was discovered that her name was on the sex offender registry.

    She testified that she was turned down for a job for the same reason and was afraid that without clearing her record, she would be prevented from pursuing a career in nursing.


    Now this is not to fault the dept, they probably had no choice in the matter. But to lose people for something they did when they were 10 is just stupid. Article says they the court overturned some of the law. But still politicians playing the scare card to the extreme.

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    The sex offender laws and registries are all whacked. There are numerous examples of people being placed on them that shouldn't be there. Now you can't tell the good guys, from the bad guys, from the reality bad guys. They pretty much place a petty shop lifter in the same category as murderers.

    I also question the logic of putting a 10 year old on the list.

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    The woman was at age 10 at the time? I am guessing since she was so young, the system can work with this woman who is now an adult and wants to make something of her life?

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    Well, tell me what was so horrendous about what she did that her record wasn't expunged when she became an adult? Or is the sex offender list not affected by that?

    Frankly, I think the junior program made the right move in removing her from the program. She did the crime and part of the punishment is realizing there are certain organizations or employers that will not let you be a member or employee because of that.

    I would expect that IF, and it is a huge IF, she has met the requirements for punishment and treatment she may no longer be a danger. But on the other hand, many sexual predators never break that mold and repeat at some point.

    I have to admit that personally I am very disturbed that her victims were as young as 5 and 6. I refuse to believe that a 10 year old did not know that this behavior was wrong.

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    If she "failed to abide by her conditions of her release", she doesn't have much of a case, imo.

    A bigger question should be "Where does a 10yo learn this behavior?". Many times, this is a result of abuse at home.

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    Yes, her actions at such a young age are disturbing. There has to be a lot more to the story. The department did what they had to do by banning her from employment.

    Thankfully they picked this up on a background check. How many departments out there don't do background checks where this would have been missed?

    Imagine the fallout if she was employed by the department and ended up caring for a small child during an emergency and somebody accused somebody of wrong doing??

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    This is screwed up on SO many fronts.

    First - a 10 year old with sex crimes means said 10 year old needs COUNSELING AND HELP not a jail term. This behavior was learned and that individual needs to got to jail, not the 10 year old. A ten year old cannot be held to the same standard as an adult.

    Second - Violated terms - there is more to this than meets the eye. Perhaps if they gave help rather than jail, then this wouldn't be an issue.

    The system failed this woman and what's worse - now this woman may continue the cycle of abuse. Her chances of pulling out of a bad situation just got taken away from here. Shaking head at the idiocy.......

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    Where are you guys getting the idea that she went to JAIL as a 10-year old and didn't receive counselling either starting then or in the 8 years between the initial sentencing and her attempt as an 18 year old to join a fire department?

    All we "know" is that:

    She later failed to abide by the conditions of her release and ultimately was judged delinquent of one count of second-degree rape and four counts of second-degree unlawful sexual conduct and ordered to register as a Tier 3 sex offender.
    Just because it says "release" doesn't mean she was in jail. We don't know if she was put in Juvenile Detention, or if she was released to her parents custody, or put in foster care. We don't know what the conditions of her release were, or when that release happened or from where that release happened or what she did to fail to abide by those conditions. We don't know if she reoffended. We certainly don't know what kind of counselling she received.

    We also don't know WHEN she was required to register for the list - "later" could mean when she was 12 years old or 17 and 1/2 years old.


    Aside from some of you taking what little we know from what was posted far too literally, what kind of a sick mind does it take to do that kind of thing to other children, especially at the age of 10? Wow.

    It brings to mind (pretty fuzzy memory of the details, but some of you will probably remember what I'm talking about) a case in England where a young boy, under 10 I believe (or maybe it was more than one child involved?) murdered another child and there was a lot of discussion about whether the child should be punished or not. There may even be more than one incident that I'm thinking of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    The woman was at age 10 at the time? I am guessing since she was so young, the system can work with this woman who is now an adult and wants to make something of her life?
    Well that's what the story was about. Until this recent case, there was no way to get it stricken from the records. And in most states, there is NO WAY for the kids that were sentenced under 14 to have there records expunged.

    In this part of Arkansas, they still talk about the Jonesboro JR high shooting. They are the ones, 10 and 13 at the time, who set off the fire alarm and shot them as they exited the building. They were both set free and clear at 21. No record of any crime whatsoever. But if two kids are playing "doctor" the oldest one will be charged, and labeled a sex offender for life. With, in most states, no hope of getting off the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The sex offender laws and registries are all whacked. There are numerous examples of people being placed on them that shouldn't be there. Now you can't tell the good guys, from the bad guys, from the reality bad guys. They pretty much place a petty shop lifter in the same category as murderers.

    I also question the logic of putting a 10 year old on the list.
    Oh you mean like the people who take naked pictures of themselves while under 18? or the teenagers who get caught while streaking? all of these will put you on the sex offender registry, makes alot of sense, your a sex offender for taking pictures of yourself. go figure.
    I think we are being a little harsh, without meeting the woman, actually knowing what she did. ( could be a case of kids playing Doctor or something and the parents taking things out of proportion?) and then knowing what her conditions were in order to stay off the registry we should probably withhold judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    Where are you guys getting the idea that she went to JAIL as a 10-year old and didn't receive counselling either starting then or in the 8 years between the initial sentencing and her attempt as an 18 year old to join a fire department?

    All we "know" is that:



    Just because it says "release" doesn't mean she was in jail. We don't know if she was put in Juvenile Detention, or if she was released to her parents custody, or put in foster care. We don't know what the conditions of her release were, or when that release happened or from where that release happened or what she did to fail to abide by those conditions. We don't know if she reoffended. We certainly don't know what kind of counselling she received.

    We also don't know WHEN she was required to register for the list - "later" could mean when she was 12 years old or 17 and 1/2 years old.


    Aside from some of you taking what little we know from what was posted far too literally, what kind of a sick mind does it take to do that kind of thing to other children, especially at the age of 10? Wow.

    It brings to mind (pretty fuzzy memory of the details, but some of you will probably remember what I'm talking about) a case in England where a young boy, under 10 I believe (or maybe it was more than one child involved?) murdered another child and there was a lot of discussion about whether the child should be punished or not. There may even be more than one incident that I'm thinking of.
    I think the case you are talking about Sheri, involved the murder of an 8 year old named Jamie Bulger by two boys aged 10 and 11. They beat him to death with rocks. They were both released about a year or so ago at age 21, one was relocated to Australia, one did want to come to Canada but I don't think he did. I remember the BEEB talking about this and at least one Dr felt that they were both still bombs waiting to explode, except now they are older and smarter.

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    It just breaks my heart that this poor little girl who molested two other children is going to have a hard time, living her life the way she wishes to. How dare the government punish her. She was only 10 years old when she played "doctor" with those other kids.

    Bull Sh*t. Wake the F#ck Up Guys.

    To hell with her and her problems, So now she cant be a nurse, so what! Once a molester always a molester. Why would you want to someone in a position that they could molest again. I'm glad that the dept. kicked her off. Good for them. And for those of you that think otherwise, why don't you guys give this beacon of the community a job at your dept. Since she was young when the crime was committed and was just misunderstood why don't you invite her over to your house to hang out with your kids. Stand up for what you believe in, talks cheap, find out what her address is and mail her an application for your dept.

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    I think what the word "release" means here is the release of her from being on the registry list. Offenders are sentenced to be a registered sex offender for X amount of time and when that time expires, they are "released" from the registry, not from a facility. It still shows in their criminal history that they were sentenced to be registered from this time to that time as part of their record just like any arrest would be. We have no information on what her sentence was either. Being that young, I'm sure there was no "jail" time (in fact most juvenile incarceration facilities do not accept children under 13 years old) I'm sure there was the typical juvenile intake investigation with counseling, behavior modification education, and maybe even foster care for a while....and of course the rules of get good grades, stay out of trouble at school, do your house chores, etc.

    Now the issue of not complying with the terms of her release could mean just about anything. Typically judges put the standard "do not drink alcohol, use illegal drugs, or have any other negative police contact" which basically means a traffic ticket, an underage drinking ticket, or any other police contact through an investigation could be a violation of her release.

    It could be like someone said a case of playing doctor or "I saw mommy do this to daddy" kind of thing. There is a whole bunch of issues going on at home for a 10 year old to being doing things like that as well. I say she was 10!! If she has performed her required terms of sentence she should be able to complete her education in nursing and be on a department. Most state laws are totally black and white where there is no room for an exception so it might not be an option for here, depending on what state she is looking for employment. Still....we cannot pass judgment with the little information we have here.

    I personally am all for second chances, I got a second chance when I was 16 and have seen lots of kids ride the edge between making something of themselves or becoming a career criminal ******bag.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    It just breaks my heart that this poor little girl who molested two other children is going to have a hard time, living her life the way she wishes to. How dare the government punish her. She was only 10 years old when she played "doctor" with those other kids.

    Bull Sh*t. Wake the F#ck Up Guys.

    To hell with her and her problems, So now she cant be a nurse, so what! Once a molester always a molester. Why would you want to someone in a position that they could molest again. I'm glad that the dept. kicked her off. Good for them. And for those of you that think otherwise, why don't you guys give this beacon of the community a job at your dept. Since she was young when the crime was committed and was just misunderstood why don't you invite her over to your house to hang out with your kids. Stand up for what you believe in, talks cheap, find out what her address is and mail her an application for your dept.

    Stay Safe
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    I don't think I indicated that anywhere in my post. Thankfully this was discovered, possibly preventing further problems down the road. And yes, she wants to be a nurse?? A HUGE WARNING FLAG should pop up for most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zackman1801 View Post
    Oh you mean like the people who take naked pictures of themselves while under 18? or the teenagers who get caught while streaking? all of these will put you on the sex offender registry, makes alot of sense, your a sex offender for taking pictures of yourself. go figure.
    I think we are being a little harsh, without meeting the woman, actually knowing what she did. ( could be a case of kids playing Doctor or something and the parents taking things out of proportion?) and then knowing what her conditions were in order to stay off the registry we should probably withhold judgment.
    Exactly. In this case you had a couple of kids (10 years old) who were curious and checked out NATURE. For the love of god, people are overly sensitive about dong what is natural. What isn't natural is a 30 year old playing wiht 10 year olds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Exactly. In this case you had a couple of kids (10 years old) who were curious and checked out NATURE. For the love of god, people are overly sensitive about dong what is natural. What isn't natural is a 30 year old playing wiht 10 year olds.
    Once again, WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE WAS PLAYING DOCTOR. We DON'T KNOW what prompted the charges ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    Once again, WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE WAS PLAYING DOCTOR. We DON'T KNOW what prompted the charges ....
    I very much doubt anyone on here has the qualifications to make ANY KIND OF A JUDGEMENT ON HERE especially with such a paucity of background. I may be that a lifelong pedophile was taken out of circulation, or a simple childs game that wasinappropriate was taken out of control by adults. Point is, WE DO NOT F**K*NG KNOW! People who live in glass houses should get dressed in the basement.

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    An 18-year-old woman was turned down for a job when it was discovered that she was convicted of sex crimes at age 10.
    Ellis was charged in 2001, when she was 10, with improperly fondling -- and in one case performing a sex act on -- other children over several incidents involving a 6-year-old boy and three girls between the ages of 5 and 9.

    She later failed to abide by the conditions of her release and ultimately was judged delinquent of one count of second-degree rape and four counts of second-degree unlawful sexual conduct and ordered to register as a Tier 3 sex offender.
    Note the highlighted part from the original poster.

    Okay improper fondling could be playing doctor. The improper sex act goes WAY beyond that and makes me wonder what the hell she was doing. Improper fondling does NOT get you a rape charge.

    The fact that she later failed to abide by conditions of her release makes her a threat to do it again.

    It was a good catch and a great job that the FD found that out and got rid of her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I personally am all for second chances, I got a second chance when I was 16 and have seen lots of kids ride the edge between making something of themselves or becoming a career criminal ******bag.
    I believe in second chances also because sometimes people do straighten themselves out, but it has to be within reason.

    People can have a second chance, but......

    A juvenile convicted of arson, doesn't get to be a firefighter.
    A juvenile convicted of killing somebody, doesn't get to be a police officer.
    A juvenile convicted of sexual assault (or related), doesn't get to be a nurse, child care worker, teacher, etc.

    Getting a second chance doesn't necessarily mean that all of your options in life are still on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post

    Getting a second chance doesn't necessarily mean that all of your options in life are still on the table.
    Very true.

    We take each individual on a case by case basis. If we do accept someone with a questionable past, we use the one year probationary period as a trial period, almost like a double secret probation. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Like I said in another post where someone asked a question like this....Some states have a mandatory denial policy for certain things. This certainly could disqualify her in some states, depending on her convictions and circumstances.
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    Since most fire departments today require their members to perform some type of EMS, either at FR, EMT-B, or
    EMT-P level, the issue of would you hire a sex offender becomes moot.
    What matters is will the State in question allow that person to provide medical care in their state?

    Since the story is from Delaware, here's what they require.

    From the Delaware State certification requirements for First Responder:
    Complete a state and federal background check administered by the Delaware State
    Bureau of Identification (SBI), and have the results sent directly to the Delaware
    State Fire School, Attention Director. Enclose a copy of the SBI Receipt with your
    application. Background checks must be completed within 30 days of receipt of
    application



    Any felony conviction for 2nd degree rape, and 4 counts of 2nd degree unlawful sexual conduct, would typically prevent a person from obtaining certification in any health care position, including EMS.

    So the whole discussion about should she be allowed to work is meaningless- what matters is will the state allow her to obtain certification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I believe in second chances also because sometimes people do straighten themselves out, but it has to be within reason.

    People can have a second chance, but......

    A juvenile convicted of arson, doesn't get to be a firefighter.
    A juvenile convicted of killing somebody, doesn't get to be a police officer.
    A juvenile convicted of sexual assault (or related), doesn't get to be a nurse, child care worker, teacher, etc.

    Getting a second chance doesn't necessarily mean that all of your options in life are still on the table.
    Do you really think a 10 year old is thinking about the future? Do you think a 10 year old really comprehends the consequences of their actions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Do you really think a 10 year old is thinking about the future? Do you think a 10 year old really comprehends the consequences of their actions?



    What the hell are you talking about? Your comment is ridiculous and has no bearing on FireMedic's post. We're not talking about giving a 10 year old a second chance, we're talking about if a rehabilitated (possibly) adult should be given a second chance in certain fields after offending as a child.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post


    What the hell are you talking about? Your comment is ridiculous and has no bearing on FireMedic's post. We're not talking about giving a 10 year old a second chance, we're talking about if a rehabilitated (possibly) adult should be given a second chance in certain fields after offending as a child.
    Are you stupid or something??? Stupid is as Stupid does?

    He SAID - Getting a second chance doesn't necessarily mean that all of your options in life are still on the table.

    I said - Do you really think a 10 year old is thinking about the future? Do you think a 10 year old really comprehends the consequences of their actions?

    The problem occurred when this person was a 10 year old child. It has everything to do with the discussion.

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    If there has been no real offencess since this person was 10 years old, then it should be a moot point. I remember trying to peek into the girls locker room after swim practice when I was 10, girls were older and younger than me in there at the time. I hope that will not be held against me today.
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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