excess funds

[celsokid]

We finished out our grant and have 7,500 in excess funds. My understanding is that we can use 5,000 for extending the purpose of the grant (equipment grant) without filing an addendum or making any requests to FEMA. Is this correct? Also, if we purchase equipment with this funding do we have to file RFP's and get 3 quotes as with the rest of the grant process? thanks

[ApuFromSpfld]

I'm sure the others that know more will advise you as well but a few things based on what I've picked up here before...

1) The $5,000 includes your local match. It's not $5,000 of federal money plus whatever you spend. Its $4500 (90%) + your $500 (10%) match (or whatever your match percentages are required to be).

2) You can extend the scope of your grant but if they cut the quantity of an item, you can't use the excess funds to buy more. For example, if they cut you from 20 pagers to 15, you cannot use the excess funds to buy five more pagers. But, spare batteries or cases for those first 15 pagers would be allowed. (Of course, if you were going to spend local money on those "extras" before the excess funds became available, you might have non-grant money to buy some extra pagers using your own money now.)

3) Same rules as for the regular money. If you could propose it as a project on its own, its eligible. If it wasn't eligible to start with, you cannot use the excess funds to buy it now. (No service contracts, for example.) Local purchasing rules or the federal rules (vendor-neutral specifications, multiple quotes, etc.) still apply as well.

[ApuFromSpfld]

Oh, and to extend the pager example... If you can, postpone using your money to buy the extra pagers for a year or so. Instead, use your excess funds to extend your project in some other way if possible.

Remember, the federal money is supposed to supplement your own spending, not replace your own spending. If you normally buy one or two pagers a year, keep doing that and get those extra five pagers over two or three years instead of right now if you can. Obviously, if you need them now, that's one thing. But, don't just buy them and stick them in a drawer.

Buy them a year or two from now, when you need them, and demonstrate that the grant money got you to a point where you can be more self-sufficient -- over the big need so you could plan for their useful life and replace them on schedule -- instead of just buying you ten years until you go back and say we have ten year old stuff that doesn't work anymore and can't afford to replace it.

[celsokid]

I am clear on those points, we bought SCBA and gear washer and will be buying hose with the 4750 of fema money and 250 of ours. My bigger question was, do we have to get FEMA's ok on this or can we just spend it, and secondly do we have to obtain 3 bids on the hose prior to purchase. Thanks.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Yes on the bidding procedure, all money has to be done that way. But DHS takes a 'bid' as a price for a product so printing out web pages counts as bids to them if it counts to you as a bid. Most areas bid openings and advertising in the paper and whatnot aren't required until you'd be spending $25k or more.

And no you don't need permission to spend the $5000 in excess, that's in the guidelines that you don't need to ask. It gets handled as part of the closeout.

[medic190]

On my first AFG, when we had excess funds available, I also asked on the forums. Recommendation given to me was to email your FPS taking care of the grant. He will likely send the 'canned' answer, but then you have the direction in writing, so if there were ever a question, you asked him (and you have it in writing) My answer was I didn't need to file an amendment, it was OK. You do, however, need to follow your existing procurement policies (which for $5,000.00 likely says you need the 3 quotes; I know mine does...) or if you lack a procurement policy, you need to follow the standards set forth in the AFG guidance. Hope this helps...

[Catch22]

Yes on the bidding procedure, all money has to be done that way. But DHS takes a 'bid' as a price for a product so printing out web pages counts as bids to them if it counts to you as a bid. Most areas bid openings and advertising in the paper and whatnot aren't required until you'd be spending $25k or more.

And no you don't need permission to spend the $5000 in excess, that's in the guidelines that you don't need to ask. It gets handled as part of the closeout.

I guess I didn't realize you didn't need to contact them in regards to the excess funds. I've always called our representative and made sure (never had a problem getting the OK).

What about the funds in excess of $5,000? We're looking at almost $10K in excess funds.

[WJVaughn]

Somebody else gets a little funding because you turn that back in.

[islandfire03]

You can apply to spend the excess above 4750.00 [Fed share } for fire prevention & safety. If not send it back to the kitty for someone else to use. The Feds would rather not have this as it creates more paperwork for them.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

The money above the $5k can be used for FP and that requires an amendment. I think it's 2000 characters or something short like that, so it's not a full FP&S narrative but it's looking for the same bullet points only in shorter form. As long as it's in the right format and the project is eligible in FP&S they won't deny it. We did one of ours that had a good amount left, they kept getting DJ'd on their FP app and it was approved as soon as we got the format correct for them.

[Catch22]

Somebody else gets a little funding because you turn that back in.

I hear what you're saying, and agree with it, but I've actually got some good use for this. We're looking at a new station computer (to replace one 10 years old), "risk management" software that we could really use and is more user friendly than NFIRS, and, if possible, a laptop to deliver our fire prevention programs that are video/power point based.

If it was a case that I was looking for somewhere to spend it, I'd probably do just that and turn it back in so someone else can benefit.

[chiefmeyer301]

I hear what you're saying, and agree with it, but I've actually got some good use for this. We're looking at a new station computer (to replace one 10 years old), "risk management" software that we could really use and is more user friendly than NFIRS, and, if possible, a laptop to deliver our fire prevention programs that are video/power point based.

If it was a case that I was looking for somewhere to spend it, I'd probably do just that and turn it back in so someone else can benefit.

hey catch whos software are u refering to, i would like to get somethiing more frendly that the nfirs direct route also it is a pain in the *****

[admpaul]

If you have extra money they would rather see you use it some how. Get some extra equipment or use it towards fire prevention. Last year I had 11000 extra and wrote an amendment to use the funds for fire prevention. I told them exactly what I was buying and who it targeted. I got smoke and co2 detectors and fire ext just to hand out to elderly people in our community. I got items for kids for open house, etc. Use the funds to improve your relations with your community. These people that want the money returned so others can get funded, hog wash!!! Maybe you need to write a better grant?

[Catch22]

hey catch whos software are u refering to, i would like to get somethiing more frendly that the nfirs direct route also it is a pain in the *****

Been looking at either Firehouse or Fire Programs. Not sure which we're going to try to go with, but leaning toward the Fire Programs.

[ktb9780]

IThese people that want the money returned so others can get funded, hog wash!!! Maybe you need to write a better grant?

I hate to disagree with you here but you are not taking into consideration that there are always good grants that do not get funded simply because the pool of money was depleted. There are always mopre applicants than there is money every year!

Although true that DHS generally does not like recieving money back, as it creates more paperwork for them, I would dare to say that there are quite a few departments that have enjoyed the fruits of a late round award from returned cost savings and are extremely happy that they got it.

[admpaul]

I do agree with ktb9780, but my point is to try to use some of the money for fire prevention. Last year when we had extra money and we were able to get alot of fire prevention items for kids, just the joy and look on their face said it all. ktb9780 is right there are grants that would not have been funded if people did not turn money back in. Sorry I was having a bad night at work and vented a little.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Most of our folks with excess end up spending it on Fire Prevention because their FP apps weren't getting funded just because there's so little money on that side of the program. That was the whole reason they opened up the excess funds to unlimited FP spending a couple years ago so people could handle their FP requests and reduce the FP app count.

[volff1170]

My department was just awarded funding to put a vehicle exhaust system in the station. That falls under station modification... so does that mean if we have excess funds, it has to go towards the same type of thing or would I be able to get different equipment? I'd like to use that extra money to get a hose roller and save this old timer's back a little bit of pain.

disregard the question... I found the answer in a different thread. Thanks anyway.

[JD1234]

disregard the question... I found the answer in a different thread. Thanks anyway.

Well, please do share your answer with us. Some of us would like to know the same thing.

[volff1170]

This is a quote from another thread posted by the grant GURU Kurt Bradley, The best thing to do is contact the DHS rep that is assigned to you and ask. They will tell you what you need to do. I guess they are pretty flexible with spending excess funds but remember to cover your *****!!!!

KSMITH, STOP! Before you do anything, get permission from DHS before you spend a dime extra and get it confirmed in an email and save it in your grant paperwork.

Why run the risk of being asked to later reimburse the program from within your own meager budget? I have horror stories I could tell you regarding "verbal" permissions and "not asking at all".

Don't go there it is a bad choice when all you have to do is simply "ask" first.

Just layout what you are proposing to do and let them issue a ruling to you. If they want an amendment they will tell you. This is not one of those times where you want to feign good faith first ,and then beg forgiveness later.