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  1. #21
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    The quote, and my dumb rural understanding of it...

    If you read it and understand it is in reference to the Shay's Rebellion... it begins to make more sense.

    Jefferson is actually saying that the rebellion by americans against the new american government was misguided. That the rebels were not "well informed".

    The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.

    Yet, it was good they demonstrated their discontent, because to be quiet and not speak up is contrary to liberty!

    If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
    That they should remind their leaders that the people rule this country, not the elite.

    And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?
    Let them protest. The fact that they died (the rebellion was put down easily). Let them protest, even if it means that those who protest and those that defend the government die. Because the death of those protestors is what liberty will require at times.

    Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
    What this Kostric was saying by using that quote is now clear. That the people must be loud and protest, even if they are wrong. To not protest would be wrong. He was defending the loud and sometimes strident protesting of these proposals.

    Mathews and most of the press just don't know or ignore the context of Jefferson's remarks.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 08-13-2009 at 10:40 PM.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    What this Kostric was saying by using that quote is now clear. That the people must be loud and protest, even if they are wrong. To not protest would be wrong. He was defending the loud and sometimes strident protesting of these proposals.

    Mathews and most of the press just don't know or ignore the context of Jefferson's remarks.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Kostric must have missed a very important event late last year. It was called an election.

    No doubt that people should be allowed to protest. It is their right. Given the state of incivility in town hall meetings (by both sides) only shows that both groups are reacting emotionally to an issue that warrants rational thought. Something that is not possible when one group comes to the event armed with hyperbole gleaned from Glenn Beck soundbites.

    It's clearly obvious to those of us who have been paying attention those protesting are more about their unhappiness with the GOP losing the White House than any real concern over liberalism or perceived encroaching tyranny.
    Last edited by scfire86; 08-14-2009 at 12:00 AM.
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  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    He was totally within his rights to demonstrate and to carry a weapon. He was within the New Hampshire laws. Probably not the smartest thing to do but he was within his rights.

    As far as Chris Matthews, I think he lost his cool by saying "..you brought a God damn gun.." He is a bully, that's what the show is all about and that is why he is the host, because he is good at what he does.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Considering the rural areas benefit from the programs funded by urban areas (ie crop subsidies) this is a quite a disconnect. Especially considering it was government that forced utility companies to install electricity out in the urban areas when the market forces determined it was unprofitable. Were it not for the largesse of federal programs, the midwest would be just so much dust blowing back and forth the last 60 years.
    Crop subsidies that keep the cost of your food down. The government sets the price these farmers can charge for milk. Every one of them would gladly give up the subsides if the price controls went with it. Worst part about the subsidies is that the majority of them go to large corporations, not the little guy. Local farmer here with a little over 100 head, his subsidy check doesn't even pay for the fertilizer.

    Billions of dollars roll form the rural areas to the cities to subsidize such things as Police, Fire Departments, Public transportation, Football stadiums, Baseball stadiums, and a host of other initiatives. The state of NY would not be such a mess if not for the city. We have bailed them out more than once. Be nice to go down around Kingston, draw a line and make the 51st state.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 08-14-2009 at 03:08 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Kostric hardly comes across as being rational. Carrying a firearm and holding a banner with an excerpt of a quote that advocates shedding the blood of others is not what one would consider an individual interested in rational dialogue.
    scfire, if you want to talk irrational, look at that disgraceful behavior of the so called journalist. He was not trying to interview this person, he was trying to belittle him and showing his abysmal one sidedness. That man is a disgrace to the journalistic field. Walter Cronkite would throw up watching him. Plus his comb over makes him look even worse.

    I will agree that taking a loaded gun to a rally or protest may not be the wisest move, but evidently, its legal, so why the big uproar?

  6. #26
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    All I want to know is does the man carrying the gun stop at green lights?

    Does he stay outside buildings if he hasn't trained to use the gun?

    Is he a paid or volunteer gun carrier?

    Does he come from a big city or a poor rural area, because that IS important?

    Does he shoot at Trout?
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  7. #27
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    scfire, if you want to talk irrational, look at that disgraceful behavior of the so called journalist. He was not trying to interview this person, he was trying to belittle him and showing his abysmal one sidedness. That man is a disgrace to the journalistic field. Walter Cronkite would throw up watching him. Plus his comb over makes him look even worse.

    I will agree that taking a loaded gun to a rally or protest may not be the wisest move, but evidently, its legal, so why the big uproar?
    Kostric and those like him claim to be outraged over their concern about encroaching tyranny and socialism. The shallowness and the timing of their concern is incredibly convenient given the actions of the last eight years. The Bush Administration was no slouches when it came to socialist/tyrannical (as defined by these folks) behavior. Yet none of these so called patriots were up in arms or demonstrating (while packing heat) during those years.

    These protests are nothing more than a vocal minority who refuse to accept the GOP has been trounced in the last two elections.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Okay. Obama has definitely lost ground in the polls. The flip side to that is the GOP hasn't gained any ground.


    Considering the rural areas benefit from the programs funded by urban areas (ie crop subsidies) this is a quite a disconnect. Especially considering it was government that forced utility companies to install electricity out in the urban areas when the market forces determined it was unprofitable. Were it not for the largesse of federal programs, the midwest would be just so much dust blowing back and forth the last 60 years.


    Might be because urban folks know the second half of the quote and believe idiots like Kostric might view them as tyrants.


    See above post. The definition of tyranny by these folks is a bit too narrow for me.
    I'm sorry. Did I miss the section of the clip where Mr. Kostric threatened people with the weapon? Or the part where he shot people who disagreed with him?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    An interesting statistic I would like to see (which is probably impossible to obtain) is this:

    This incident is getting a lot of attention because he followed the "open-carry laws" and his gun was visible. But how many people have used their concealed carry license and carried a gun that was not visible to a political event?

    The problem here is not that he legally took a legally owned gun to the event. the problem here is how people are reacting to a person who took advantage of his rights.

    Whatever point he was trying to make is not even relevant now. All the media has achieved now is "prove" to the conservatives that their right to bear arms is indeed being threatened.
    There has also been spin that he was a security threat to the Pres.

    I went to an event with Pres. Bush in Elizabeth, NJ in 2002 that was predominantly cops and FF. All attendees had to have tickets to enter the area where the event was held.

    The Secret Service made sure that NO police officer had their weapon on-uniform or not. If you didn't secure your weapon, you didn't get in. They made it clear days before the event not to try to enter the event with your weapon.

    I also worked a security detail in Cedar Knolls, NJ where Pres. Bush came into a hotel for a fundraiser. We secured a very tight perimeter. The protest area was on the opposite side of the hotel from where the motorcade entered and the Pres. entered the hotel.

    This guy, I guarantee, was nowhere near the Pres. I'll b
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  10. #30
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    It's clearly obvious to those of us who have been paying attention those protesting are more about their unhappiness with the GOP losing the White House than any real concern over liberalism or perceived encroaching tyranny.
    I do not understand how someone who is "paying attention" can come to this conclusion. It flies in the face of everything that is being reported and everything that is being said and written.
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  11. #31
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Kostric must have missed a very important event late last year. It was called an election.
    Patriotism is what people have when they love their country. And what does patriotism have to do with last year's election. Amazing how your ideology and hypocricy allow you to let Democrats and liberals say and do anything they want in protestation of a conservative, but if a conservative does it you cannot help but deride them. Hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Something that is not possible when one group comes to the event armed with hyperbole gleaned from Glenn Beck soundbites.
    Yet you can get your "rational" thoughts from Huffington Post and MoveOn.Org. Your hypocricy strikes again. How convenient. You say he gets his "hyperbole" from a person, but as usual you lack the intestinal fortitude to challenge what he said point for point. Exactly like Mr. Obama having plants in the crowd, and having softball questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It's clearly obvious to those of us who have been paying attention those protesting are more about their unhappiness with the GOP losing the White House than any real concern over liberalism or perceived encroaching tyranny.
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiight. More scat from the Huffington Post? Come on man, get real. It is people who see the writing on the wall, have politicians who have not read a bill that adds a tremendous amount of spending and debt to our nation and its budget, and simply do not trust the expansion of government as being a good thing. While some people may have the feelings you espouse, it does not mean all, most, or even a large percentage of them do.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  12. #32
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Kostric and those like him claim to be outraged over their concern about encroaching tyranny and socialism. The shallowness and the timing of their concern is incredibly convenient given the actions of the last eight years. The Bush Administration was no slouches when it came to socialist/tyrannical (as defined by these folks) behavior. Yet none of these so called patriots were up in arms or demonstrating (while packing heat) during those years.
    And how do you know that they did not.

    A trouncing and restriction of rights eventually hits a point where people are going to be upset. It does not matter if it is from a Republican or a Democrat. One can protest regardless. It is convenient how you will only allow your narrow point of view to be protested.

    Don't forget that Barrack Obama also voted for an extension of the Patriot Act.........which you have not liked (nor have I) from its outset.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    These protests are nothing more than a vocal minority who refuse to accept the GOP has been trounced in the last two elections.
    Vocal minority? You have obviosuly not been paying attention to the numerous reports about Mr. Obama's popularity and support dropping by the week both personally and on this matter. Apparently 56% of polled people in the Liberal mindset is a minority. Perhaps you ought to attend a basic mathematics class.

    Where is your proof (I realize that you are virtually incapable of offering proof in support of your arguments) that this is anger over the GOP. You have apparently missed the sliding support of even Democrats and self-described liberals over this expansion of the government into healthcare.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  13. #33
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I'm sorry. Did I miss the section of the clip where Mr. Kostric threatened people with the weapon? Or the part where he shot people who disagreed with him?
    You see George, to a liberal - such as scfire86 - simply displaying a weapon is a threat. That is why the libs are in such a complete uproar over this. They don't want people to even own a weapon, let alone carry one.

    To a liberal the mere possession or ownership of a firearm is an affront to their sense of decency. You see, liberals concentrate themselves in larger metropolitan areas and have the feeling that they are safe there. They have no comprehension of having to defend oneself, or what it is like to live "in the sticks."

    Poor scfire86 is getting his talking points right off of the same point sheet that Chris Matthews and the other liberal talk show hosts got theirs from. Hell, I was listening to the local liberal afternoon talk show yesterday and they were going down the same points he is going down. Must be some sort of conspiracy.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  14. #34
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I do not understand how someone who is "paying attention" can come to this conclusion. It flies in the face of everything that is being reported and everything that is being said and written.
    You see George, it is clear that he has not seen it for himself.

    After all Harry Reid called the people denouncing the expansion of government health care "reform" as "evil-mongers" http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/1...ngers/?print=1

    And Nancy Pelosi has called people protesting and against the expansion of government health care "reform" as "un-american" http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/...e-debate-.html


    Like I said George, liberals and Democrats think that freedom of speech only involves making points that are in agreement with them.

    If this nonsense passes - I think that next year's elections are going to be very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Kostric and those like him claim to be outraged over their concern about encroaching tyranny and socialism. The shallowness and the timing of their concern is incredibly convenient given the actions of the last eight years. The Bush Administration was no slouches when it came to socialist/tyrannical (as defined by these folks) behavior. Yet none of these so called patriots were up in arms or demonstrating (while packing heat) during those years.

    These protests are nothing more than a vocal minority who refuse to accept the GOP has been trounced in the last two elections.
    I can't speak for all people, but I haven't liked the way governments at all levels are increasing taxes and taking away our freedoms. They have been doing this for the last 80 years. Comes a point when the people will stand up and say enough. The GOP was bad. But now we have these extreme radicals running the country into the ground . Subtle pushes go unnoticed, this massive socialist movement has made people take a stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Vocal minority? You have obviosuly not been paying attention to the numerous reports about Mr. Obama's popularity and support dropping by the week both personally and on this matter. Apparently 56% of polled people in the Liberal mindset is a minority. Perhaps you ought to attend a basic mathematics class.
    Would that be the same vocal minority that represents the environmental movement and protest at the G8 summits? Would this be the same vocal minority that says some races are getting preferential treatment on things like standardized exams? Is this the same vocal minority that protested the Iraq war in the beginning?

    As fro the poll numbers, they keep slipping away. Obama will be a one and done and the Democrats will take a beating in the next election.

  17. #37
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I do not understand how someone who is "paying attention" can come to this conclusion. It flies in the face of everything that is being reported and everything that is being said and written.
    Easily. The yardstick being applied by this gun toting individual is that we are slowly losing our freedoms due to the programs being enacted by the Obama Administration. In my opinion the majority of them are not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto.

    Yet now all of a sudden they are concerned about socialism.
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  18. #38
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    You see George, it is clear that he has not seen it for himself.

    After all Harry Reid called the people denouncing the expansion of government health care "reform" as "evil-mongers" http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/1...ngers/?print=1

    And Nancy Pelosi has called people protesting and against the expansion of government health care "reform" as "un-american" http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/...e-debate-.html


    Like I said George, liberals and Democrats think that freedom of speech only involves making points that are in agreement with them.

    If this nonsense passes - I think that next year's elections are going to be very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
    Do you see any of those statements (or myself) stating these people shouldn't be allowed to speak out or protest?

    Your confusing criticism of speech with the restriction of speech.
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  19. #39
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Would that be the same vocal minority that represents the environmental movement and protest at the G8 summits? Would this be the same vocal minority that says some races are getting preferential treatment on things like standardized exams? Is this the same vocal minority that protested the Iraq war in the beginning?
    Nope. Scfire86 has no problem with them since they are almost all liberals and Socialists so they can speak and protest all that they want without criticism.

    Note the difference in tone from the media coverage of the two events, those protestors are shown getting beaten down by police after rioting, breaking glass, burning and tossing cars, throwing rocks at police, and breaking laws.

    This guy is castigated by the media (and scfire86) for not breaking a single law. And if anyone thinks that this guy was a threat to POTUS, I'm willing to bet that at least one scope on a rifle was aimed at this guy at all times. The United States Secret Service has some of the best marksmen the world has ever known.....They tend not to miss their targets.
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    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Easily. The yardstick being applied by this gun toting individual is that we are slowly losing our freedoms due to the programs being enacted by the Obama Administration. In my opinion the majority of them are not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto.

    Yet now all of a sudden they are concerned about socialism.
    Perhaps your memory is short and you have not been paying attention, but people have been growing increasingly upset, and the "Main Stream Media" is just now finally paying some attention to them.

    And when the Medicare benefit was being debated, there was a whole *****storm of debate and protest going on.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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