1. #1
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    Default Who are the FP&S grant really targeted for?

    I had posted this elsewhere but I thought I would I would break it out for a better discussion while we wait for award announcements.

    It seems odd to me that the large bulk of the FP&S funds go to non-traditional fire departments entities. It's become very difficult for the 'mom & pop' fire depts to get to do much fire prevention work with the programs meager funding while trying to meet the program objectives. Seems really limiting. Without really doing the math, I bet 80% of the program funds goes to non FD's. Thats makes it really difficult to implement local programs that can target specific local problems or issues. The big media campaigns, research, and regional entities just can't get the hands on approach, that localized projects may be able to.
    It seems in the recent past the funding target has shifted from the individual FD's to the big corps.
    Anyone want to chime in?
    Last edited by hinesfire; 08-30-2009 at 01:43 AM.

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    I think your on the right track Hinesfire.

    It does seem that the bulk of the funding goes toward research universities and other non fire dept organizations. We have applied for FP&&S 3 times and not been funded yet. All made it to peer review so maybe they really don't want small community based programs that will reach into tour neighbors only generalized "big scale " programs that research and pay salaries to the staff that does the research.

    Stepping off my rant box now.
    .

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    Well, at least I was not the only one that noticed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    I think your on the right track Hinesfire.

    It does seem that the bulk of the funding goes toward research universities and other non fire dept organizations. We have applied for FP&&S 3 times and not been funded yet. All made it to peer review so maybe they really don't want small community based programs that will reach into tour neighbors only generalized "big scale " programs that research and pay salaries to the staff that does the research.

    Stepping off my rant box now.
    .
    'Island', you stay right on that rant box. IMO FEMA was saying how they were not in the weeding out of non-complaint departments, but no one really believed them. Now when a good block of volunteer departments are efforting themselves to keep up with the ever increasing fire service demands, we start to encounter legislative roadblocks. Are told to expect more of them. Not asking for a 'spread the wealth' system, but a understanding balance would help. Such as someone slowing down the flood of regulations. This trend of 'do this or else this could happen' is followed up with 'and you gotta pay for it yourself' addition. Where does the cost benefit that grant writers are so familiar to begin to be considered say in fire apparatus? What I mean is, just how much 'safety features and safe at all costs' have to be added into a vehicles sale price. The Obama health care proposes to do the opposite. A 70 year old's life is not worth the expense of procedures that could allow them to live another 15 years, but allow these regulatory agencies to continue to demonstrate their importance by pushing through more and more regulations and proposed regulations.
    I've been wondering what happened to those reflective vests that were not ANSI approved before the deadline took place?

    Anyway I got a rant box too and it gets both higher and knocked back down all the time. more to follow,,,,,

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    Hi, I work for the Devil as his Advocate.

    Lets look back at 2004 FP&S awards.

    National Association of Hispanic Firefighters 200k
    IAFF 750k
    IL Assoc. of Fire Protection Districts Foundation 66k
    Burn Prevention Foundation 236k
    Fire Protection Research Foundation 119k
    Maine Forest Service 60k
    The Housing Authority of the City of Meridian 675k
    Operation K.I.D.S 16k
    American Red Cross Rome Area Chapater 9k
    Chautauqua Children's Safety Education Village Inc 278k
    CLUSTER, Inc. 36k
    Aluminum Cans for Burned Children of Northeast OH 49k
    National SAFE KIDS Campaign 412k
    North Bay Firefighters Community Safety and Educat 1k


    Thats just the first page of announcements. Also included is
    museums, insurance companies, for profit companies, etc.

    My point is, these folks got some BIG money (Some got little money) in 2004. I don't think there has been a big shift in funding (although I did not put the pencil to it).

    I do think that maybe some have gotten to the point where just how many fire safety trailers can be funded in an area. How many robots. What good if any are they doing in the first place?

    Looking at the last list, it appears at first blush to be similiar in numbers to previous years.

    I think where a lot of us miss out is looking at the risk assesments, and looking at doing stronger partnerships with non-traditional partners.


    IMHO, YMMV, etc

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    Well I was strongly advised to put in for a risk assessment, and I did and I have heard Nothing!! Just very frustrating

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Hi, I work for the Devil as his Advocate.
    I thought that was you I saw at the office the other day! You must be my supervisor then...

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    How much that pay Blake? Is that higher than a Minion?

    The cost-benefits of major research projects sometimes pay off in the end. After all a few of the PPE advancements came out of FP&S awards which basically paid for the R&D instead of the manufacturers, so prices didn't hit us as bad as every vendor doing their own and then passing it on. Other stuff has come out in better tactics and building construction issues that we need to keep our eyes and ears on. Most of these end up as thinking grants, meaning that their results are meant to make us think about what we're doing on each call to remain around for the next one.

    Basic FP&S doesn't require much dough, after spending many years myself with just gear and packs talking to the kids on a level they'll understand to help avoid issues. Open houses are where we'd attack the parents with the safety message. Rulers and whatnot are nice to haves and they work slightly better than nothing, but giving a dang carries more weight.

    It's hard to fight the cost-benefit on a $10k grant to a 5k population area over one that will benefit all 1 million FFs for less than $1 per. This is also why we encourage everyone to use their excess funds to purchase the FP stuff that isn't getting awarded.

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    Still trying to figure out how UL was awarded just shy of the max, go figure
    Last edited by utfd704; 08-31-2009 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utfd704 View Post
    Still trying to figure out how UL was awarded just shy of the max, go figure
    I might have some insight there guy, as I have spoken to them whle they were attending a class I did.

    They are working on testing new foams to combat the "tructurally engineered beams etc." wood materials being used in new homes that have been the cause of frequent floor and structural collapses. Apparently these new structurally engineered beams etc. use a glue and othert chemciclas that present varying degrees of "new" problems for you guys in fighting fires in these new homes and their reserach is to come up with the solutions to counter that new risk.
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    New foam as in coating for them or as in firefighting foam? Latter won't do anything since failure time for direct impingement is within 2-4 minutes I think. I know gusset plates were 400 degrees and they started backing out but it doesn't take as long for the engineered I-beams since they're just glued & pressed wood chips. Melt the glue and gravity is still an unbroken law. I did a demo one of the last recruit classes I taught, pulled some scraps from the builder that did our house and showed them the difference between a 2x8 and the engineered I-beam with a 5 gal bucket of water for weight. 2 I-beams versus 1 2x8 and the I-beams collapsed in under 3 minutes. Was only burning scrap wood under them so a "real" fire load would have worked faster in my crude experiment.

    FFing foams won't make much progress since most don't have on board foam systems and can't afford the price of existing foams now. Better idea would be more fire-proofed building techniques. Or that little current controversy called fire sprinklers in the home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    New foam as in coating for them or as in firefighting foam? Latter won't do anything since failure time for direct impingement is within 2-4 minutes I think. I know gusset plates were 400 degrees and they started backing out but it doesn't take as long for the engineered I-beams since they're just glued & pressed wood chips. Melt the glue and gravity is still an unbroken law. I did a demo one of the last recruit classes I taught, pulled some scraps from the builder that did our house and showed them the difference between a 2x8 and the engineered I-beam with a 5 gal bucket of water for weight. 2 I-beams versus 1 2x8 and the I-beams collapsed in under 3 minutes. Was only burning scrap wood under them so a "real" fire load would have worked faster in my crude experiment.

    FFing foams won't make much progress since most don't have on board foam systems and can't afford the price of existing foams now. Better idea would be more fire-proofed building techniques. Or that little current controversy called fire sprinklers in the home.
    It may have been in the actual chemical componenets that hold the stuff togther, that sounds more like what UL would do. It has been a little over a year ago since I have spoken to the guy so you coud very well be right Brina.
    Kurt Bradley
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