Thread: apparatus costs

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    Default apparatus costs

    is it just me or does it seem that new apparatus costs have just become ridiculous. I was reading a trade journal yesterday and was startled to see the average costs of most of the recently delivered engines were comparable to new ladder trucks! i mean really a 690,000 dollar engine? it didnt seem that long ago when a topped out custom engine was around 300,000. even commercial cab engines are starting around 200,000, these types of costs are certianly going to put a dent in alot of smaller communitys abilitys to replace an older engine with a new one. i dont know how the rest of you are set but it looks like i might be pushing for a used apparatus as our next purchase when the time comes. i know engineering costs, labor and materials play thier part in the cost... but how much of this price is just plain profitable padding? idk but it seems that since the FIRE act grant apparatus costs went haywire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimondfyre View Post
    but how much of this price is just plain profitable padding?
    Ask the NFPA, and the members of the Automotive Fire Apparatus Committee (who decide what goes into NFPA 1901) that are all factory representatives of various industries that all gain profit from selling their wares and services to apparatus manufacturers.....
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimondfyre View Post
    I was reading a trade journal yesterday and was startled to see the average costs of most of the recently delivered engines were comparable to new ladder trucks! i mean really a 690,000 dollar engine?
    Although I agree with FWD, I will bet you the $690,00 that the particular engine you were looking at had alot of nice to have's that are not necessary for a single role engine company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimondfyre View Post
    I was reading a trade journal yesterday and was startled to see the average costs of most of the recently delivered engines were comparable to new ladder trucks! i mean really a 690,000 dollar engine?
    Although I agree with FWD, I will bet you the $690,00 that the particular engine you were looking at had alot of nice to have's that are not necessary for a single role engine company.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Another reason why the costs of fire apparatus keep going up...

    The "L" word... ( get your minds out of the gutters, guys! )

    Liability.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Wow $690,000 who was the company that made it? We just purchased a new rescue/engine in 2007 with all the bells and whistles because the money was donated by a life memeber that passed and the final price was $392,569.58 and it's a Sutphen
    Last edited by CVFD9LT; 08-30-2009 at 08:28 PM.

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    Trucks these days are getting far more expensive, but prices really start to go up with the extras.... a generator, a light tower, built in hydraulics, hose, nozzles, deck guns, out the door right there can be as much as 100k

    Customs cost more, bigger engines cost more, finally all those extras cost more.

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    Yeah we got a 1,000 gal tank 30 gal class a foam deck gun 10k pto generator no hydaulics the only thing that makes our truck a rescue engine is the "body style" as i nthe roll up doors according to sutphen the led warning package and federal q along with the roto ray and extended bumper with 150' preconnect along with the 1,000gal tank foam deck gun and generator was close to $56,000
    Last edited by CVFD9LT; 08-30-2009 at 08:28 PM.

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    I sat next to a production manager from a large chassis builder yesterday on my way home from FRI. He said the price of apparatus will increase from $8-20K due to the new engine exhaust regulations taking effect.

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    8-20K??? Thats ridicualous aint nothin like bending over the little man and stickin it in dry here is a link to the pic of our truck

    http://www.sutphen.com//imageuploads...y-photo-64.jpg

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    You can't trust the price of the apparatus you see int he trade journal as you have no idea what they've included or excluded. Many FD's buy all new everything on a new piece while others will re-use almost everything from the older piece. I know our recent engine will show up at $482K but at least $50k is in replacement rescue tools.

    Trying to get apple and apples in a magazine is nearly impossible. Look at the FH run surveys, hardly trustworthy information due to the way each FD calculates runs.

    But.. I will agree with others that NFPA, Fed DOT, EPA and liability are adding significant costs that are likely not warranted and will have an opposite effect, by forcing many places to refurb (not to NFPA) or push the age of apparatus.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 08-30-2009 at 09:26 PM. Reason: added comment

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    Next time you meet a "Greenie" (Environut) thank him/her/it for making the Apparatus Costs go up. The new Exhaust Emissions standards are just plain STUPID.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVFD9LT View Post
    8-20K??? Thats ridicualous aint nothin like bending over the little man and stickin it in dry here is a link to the pic of our truck

    http://www.sutphen.com//imageuploads...y-photo-64.jpg
    I hope you got an independent suspension-the 2 Sutphens we got without them have kept our local chiropractor in business.

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    Yeah we got the independant front suspension although i'm not real fond of the sutphen i love our old mack it's a 1984 Mack MC that we use as a reserve engine the truck is an absolute beast and will outpump the sutphen and the hme hands down no questions asked

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    Well what burns me is that yes any new regs raises the price but the reality is the manufactors raise the prices 200 to 300% above what the actual cost of the new reg is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Well what burns me is that yes any new regs raises the price but the reality is the manufactors raise the prices 200 to 300% above what the actual cost of the new reg is.
    Where did you learn your writing and logic skills? You actually have a point in there?

    You can buy an E-One Tradition ES (extruded body) on a Freightliner M2-106 Cumins 300hp/Allison 1250gpm/1000gal polytank 2009 NFPA 2007 EPA no options no equipment for under $150000. You can no doubt buy a cheapie bent body for less than that. And water/hose/nozzles will do dang a fine job putting out fires.

    Deduct 2009 NFPA which added NOTHING functional for FD and save $8-10k. Deduct 2007 EPA which on a fire truck did NOTHING for anyone in the entire world and save $10k. So call it $130000 for a new truck. Whats that about the mfg?

    Adjust for inflation and compare to the 1968 Chevy C70 gas/stick w/750PTO steel tank and pressure governor that cost $_____. Which is the better deal?

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    Along with the "bells and whistles", many final cost reports include the equipment that will go on the rig as well..ie: scba, portable radios, hand tools, etc. etc.

    That being said the rig may actually only cost around $400-$500k but then the rest of the cost is that as listed above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CVFD9LT View Post
    Wow $690,000 who was the company that made it? We just purchased a new rescue/engine in 2007 with all the bells and whistles because the money was donated by a life memeber that passed and the final price was $392,569.58 and it's a Sutphen
    Maybe my color settings are off..Is that burgandy or brown??

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    It's burgundy it matches the old mack and the hme and the aerialscope we went to that color from hyper yellow lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    Along with the "bells and whistles", many final cost reports include the equipment that will go on the rig as well..ie: scba, portable radios, hand tools, etc. etc.

    That being said the rig may actually only cost around $400-$500k but then the rest of the cost is that as listed above.
    yeah luckily we had just re-tooled our mack before we purchased this truck so everything we put on it was new already...and we put all the old stuff back on the mack for a reserve engine incase we need it for a run or if one of the mainline engines goes down

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    What would the cost difference be in buying a new engine with the equipment ( hose, nozzles ect) on it compared to the fire dept. buying the equipment separate and loading it themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    What would the cost difference be in buying a new engine with the equipment ( hose, nozzles ect) on it compared to the fire dept. buying the equipment separate and loading it themselves.
    The end cost may be quite similar, as we've found apparatus builders do not buy enough of anything but ladders and fittings to incur a significant discount. But many FD's cannot get new tools and equipment unless they are all packaged up and bonded into the total project cost. This makes the final deal higher as they include all the "extras". This is how our City Hall operates, one tidy package, no increases in any annual line. So while we could often save a few dollars, it is rare that that happens.

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    yes its true about that 690,000 engine having all the bells and wistles. it was a smeal on a spartan gladiator. by the way the cost also included engineering on the compartment spaces, hydraulic generator, rescue tool and several aftermarket add ins that really bumped it up. but all in all if i averaged it out with all the others i am seeing most are still coming in at 450 to 500,000 bucks. now granted im talking custom cab engines and not commercial crew cabs which i know has a disparity in price, but even those also went up in price. now that im on the subject of the commercial cab chassis the engineering on those hardly changed at all on most of those models other than trying to find space the new epa emmissions crap. so how come the huge differance there? most of them just bumped the chassis hieght up to make it work, doesnt seem like a 8 to 10 or 12k worth of adjustment.

    the last full size engine we bought was a pumper tanker with a lot of custom compartmentation and pump changes, as well as a few after manufacturer add ons and that only came to 184k. that was only 8 years ago! now a stock demo unit cant be touched around here for less than 200k, that used to be around 150k or less. just seems like taking it in the you know where to me.

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    we bought an hme demo in 2003 and we had fed q,through tank ladder storage,10kw generator,and 2 extra crosslays to it and had it repainted to our burgundy color and all together we paid like $240k and that was only 6 years ago we spec'd one exactly like it before we bought our sutphen and it jumped up to $465k and the sutphen came in at $392,569.58 and it has a bigger tank (1200gal) the hme only has 1,000

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimondfyre View Post
    now that im on the subject of the commercial cab chassis the engineering on those hardly changed at all on most of those models other than trying to find space the new epa emmissions crap. so how come the huge differance there? most of them just bumped the chassis hieght up to make it work, doesnt seem like a 8 to 10 or 12k worth of adjustment.
    There is more to it than height/size. According to the guy I spoke to, there is going to be wiring running to sensors on the exhaust system to measure the gases in the exhaust, among other changes. Read here for some of the ludicrous-ness--

    Road Map to a Cleaner Diesel Drive

    By Cindy Skrzycki
    Tuesday, April 10, 2007

    Change your oil according to your vehicle's maintenance schedule, and don't forget to fill the urea tank.

    The urea tank?

    Starting in 2010, owners of diesel-powered cars and trucks may have to fill a supplementary tank with urea, an organic compound that fights nitrogen oxide emissions when it's injected into a vehicle's exhaust system.

    In anticipation of vehicle makers adopting an emissions-reduction system that depends on urea to meet tight diesel pollution-control rules, the Environmental Protection Agency issued guidelines on March 27 telling manufacturers how to earn certification for the new engines. The agency wants to ensure that urea is easily available and that systems will be designed to force owners to keep tanks full.

    Besides offering insight into the EPA's concerns, the 10-page document illustrates how Washington's regulatory decisions can spawn applications of new technology, increase demand for a commodity and require the establishment of a supply and distribution infrastructure.

    In this case, the industry's practical and engineering ingenuity is being challenged. Companies must design a system that would meet Clean Air Act rules by 2010 calling for the virtual elimination of nitrogen oxides and compel owners to maintain emission-control systems.

    Diesel engine makers are looking at an advanced control device, called selective catalyst reduction, that uses a urea solution in the exhaust system, reducing the pollutant to nitrogen gas and water.

    The technology is attractive to the manufacturers because it has worked in large industrial applications, is already used in Europe and is less costly than other approaches.

    rest of article at:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...900997_pf.html

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