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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    First, it sounds like they did go find him.
    Second, this part of the article (or maybe the whole thing) is horribly worded. Makes it seem like it was a rumpus room without the BC. "AHH, No BC! What's that red stuff?! Holy S, this is intense! We should call somebody."
    I'm pretty sure CFD, like most good department's have enough tasks pre planned such that the officer's can step up and get things done.
    All it says is radio calls. That is not going to find him. Again, I'll concede that this article sounds like it was written by a 6th grader.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.


  2. #22
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    The suspension is for 15 calendar days, so 1 paycheck - 4 shifts. I would bet he is not that popular with the crews and that is why he was left swinging. Just a hunch...

  3. #23
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    Thats a pretty big assumption to say they left the chief hanging. I bet they just don't really pay attention to what the chief is doing while they are getting on the rig. There's a lot of legitimate reasons for why they wouldn't be holding the BC's hand when a call comes in.

    Granted its good to look over to make sure the other companies housed with you are turning out, but if there is some sort of visual obstacle I'm not going to go out of my way to check. I have an alarm to get to.

    either way things happen, hopefully the dispatcher sent someone to look for him out of CONCERN FOR HIS WELL BELLING when he didn't get on the air after several minutes.

  4. #24
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    I can't speak for all the facts here. It is possible the chief was responding from a different house where the other rigs were not dispatched. If responding from the same house there are other issues as well. If we are staffed, the rig I'm assigned, we are rolling. We may wait a bit to see if the others start going, but we are not going to wait for a long time before rolling. If someone is missing from my rig, yeah one of us will probably go kick their bunk or something, but I'm not going to concern myself with the ladder company crew if I'm on the pump and vice versa.

    As it is when the tones drop in the middle of the night, there is enough thoughts going on and you do assume, yes assume, that everyone heard the call. You get to the rig, get in bunkers, get on the rig, start strapping on the SCBA and so forth. Basically I'm not watching the other rigs in house if they are all doing the same. We are still responding to do our jobs, not checking to see if everyone is awake, especially if off a different rig.

    Thing is there could be a ton of variables, I know of rigs delayed because a guy was in the shower or in the bathroom, etc. If it is a member of the rig that is missing, one of us will go get them, but we typically are not going to look for someone off a different rig. In a sense should the staffed companies all get out and look around for the battalion chief? Sure, there could be medical reasons and firefighters have been found dead in the station, but we also have the job to do and the call to go on as well, instead of waiting because someone isn't at their other rig when we are ready to roll.

    Given the same situation as here, 99% of the time the staffed rig will roll out the station, not go and see if everyone is in their rig. If such a situation occurred, the person who slept through will tend to get checked on more before rolling out, if that means kicking their bed or whatever.

    As for keeping things in house, that is kinda hard to do when another chief was dispatched.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Yeah, but this isn't one of them.....retard.
    DUH!!! No kidding. It was realized a long time ago that there is a whole bunch of down time. So let the guys sleep and don't pay them as much. That is how a whole bunch of guys can work two full time jobs. Cities accepted the risk of allowing fire fighters to sleep on duty so they could save the 10 minutes or so it would take them to get there. Back then they didn't know about he risk of being brought out of a dead sleep and then responding. Studies show it takes roughly 15 minutes to get to full performance when coming out of a sleep.

    The bigger issues wasn't that he was sleeping but that he failed to do his job.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    DUH!!! No kidding. It was realized a long time ago that there is a whole bunch of down time. So let the guys sleep and don't pay them as much. That is how a whole bunch of guys can work two full time jobs. Cities accepted the risk of allowing fire fighters to sleep on duty so they could save the 10 minutes or so it would take them to get there. Back then they didn't know about he risk of being brought out of a dead sleep and then responding. Studies show it takes roughly 15 minutes to get to full performance when coming out of a sleep.

    The bigger issues wasn't that he was sleeping but that he failed to do his job.
    Using your logic, they should have suspended him longer for that.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Using your logic, they should have suspended him longer for that.
    You lost me. I stated it takes about 15 minutes for anyone to come out of a state of sleep. That is just the way the human body works. We sleep in 90 minute cycles, shortly into the sleep cycle you go into a deep sleep and then come back to a shallow sleep before repeating the cycle.

  8. #28
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    Based on what I read in the newspaper article...

    He failed to meet his job requirements and was punished.

    Seems like there has to be some consequences, if it was appropriate or not, I don't know.

    A lot goes into that answer. Past disciplinary practices and job performance could affect the punishment.

    It certainly doesn't look good for the department, and as a well respected emailer more or less pointed out, the way the department handled it in the press leaves a lot to be desired.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  9. #29
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You lost me. I stated it takes about 15 minutes for anyone to come out of a state of sleep. That is just the way the human body works. We sleep in 90 minute cycles, shortly into the sleep cycle you go into a deep sleep and then come back to a shallow sleep before repeating the cycle.
    Exactly. You can't will yourself into doing or not doing something while you are sleeping yet you advocate that he failed to do his job. Perhaps everyone at the fire should be disciplined as well for not operating to full capacity for 15 minutes.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  10. #30
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    Not knowing all the facts, I'll reserve any personal judgement on the guy...however, pretty embrassing to say the least! Can you image the flaming he is in for by his guys?

    I witnessed this happening early on in my career. We got tapped out on a first due box and we left quarters as a station pretty much at the same time. The BC's quarters were in a separate building out back and we usually did not see them pull out. We did, however, usually hear them on the radio checking in. Turned out to be a false alarm. Enroute back to quarters, the BC passed us going code 3 enroute to the call! Knowing this guy pretty well, and the fact that he typically beats us out of quarters, we all knew that he was caught napping pretty hard. We got back to quarters and "relocated" his bunk to the front apron. Bed, nightstand, lamp and alarm clock. It was set up just as he had left it ensuring that the next call he would be fully alerted to when we were leaving quarters. That's all it took. At shift change, nothing was said and the issue was never brought up again. The BC made sure we had a good meal the next swing and he never got caught napping through a call afterwards. Turns out, he developed a severe case of sleep apnea a couple years later and passed away in his sleep while on vacation.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Exactly. You can't will yourself into doing or not doing something while you are sleeping yet you advocate that he failed to do his job. Perhaps everyone at the fire should be disciplined as well for not operating to full capacity for 15 minutes.

    If you can't do that then don't sleep. DUH!!!!!! Sleeping on the job is a privilege, not a right.

  12. #32
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    Turns out, he developed a severe case of sleep apnea a couple years later and passed away in his sleep while on vacation.
    That is my point. What you guys did was pretty funny, but you knew the Chief was OK. In the other case, the Chief could have been lying at the bottom of the stairs after he fell. No one knew, apparently, if he was OK.

    The Chief doesn't stop being a brother once he is promoted. It's true, that the relationship is different, but he is still a fire fighter. We should watch out for our own, no matter what.

    I am not excusing his actions. If this was a chronic type of thing, than the punishment may very well be appropriate. Also, maybe the guy is a complete jerk who nobody likes. But the punishment should have been secondary to ensuring his well being.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If you can't do that then don't sleep. DUH!!!!!! Sleeping on the job is a privilege, not a right.
    Unless you're working a 24-hour shift, in which case you want your firefighters to be well-rested. Imagine the negative consequences of having guys run calls, train, check the rigs, etc. all day and then requiring that they stay awake until shift change.

    It's begging for trouble.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If you can't do that then don't sleep. DUH!!!!!! Sleeping on the job is a privilege, not a right.
    In some cases, sleeping on the job may be a privilege. I'm not sure whether or not is a right, however I do know that there are provisions in the labor laws that require a rest period (i.e. sleeping) under specific circumstances.

    You really should move on to something else to complain about. It's pretty clear that you simply don't get that firefighting as an occupation just isn't like many other jobs and therefore work conditions won't be just like many other jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlecomedown View Post
    Unless you're working a 24-hour shift, in which case you want your firefighters to be well-rested. Imagine the negative consequences of having guys run calls, train, check the rigs, etc. all day and then requiring that they stay awake until shift change.

    It's begging for trouble.
    Careful saying that. Do you want John Q Public to know you need to rest on the job. They will then think you should be working 8 hour shifts so you can rest on your own time

    FYI, I work in a 24 x 7 Security operation. In order to maintain alertness and competency we are not allowed to work more than 12 hours at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    In some cases, sleeping on the job may be a privilege. I'm not sure whether or not is a right, however I do know that there are provisions in the labor laws that require a rest period (i.e. sleeping) under specific circumstances.

    You really should move on to something else to complain about. It's pretty clear that you simply don't get that firefighting as an occupation just isn't like many other jobs and therefore work conditions won't be just like many other jobs.
    I'm not complaining at all, just pointing out that if the Chief canít sleep on duty and still do his job then he either needs to find a new job or not sleep on the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Careful saying that. Do you want John Q Public to know you need to rest on the job. They will then think you should be working 8 hour shifts so you can rest on your own time
    I think most of the public is already aware that firefighters do sleep for a portion of their shift. Most reasonable people have no problem with us having a set period of the day during which we are allowed to sleep (for us it's 2100-0700 the next morning), realizing that we are usually running calls during said period. Those that think we have it too easy and should reman awake for 24 hours probably won't be convinced otherwise by any argument.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Careful saying that. Do you want John Q Public to know you need to rest on the job. They will then think you should be working 8 hour shifts so you can rest on your own time

    FYI, I work in a 24 x 7 Security operation. In order to maintain alertness and competency we are not allowed to work more than 12 hours at a time.
    There is a reason most places dont work 8 hour shifts....and it has little to do with rest. A clown like you wouldnt understand any of that though.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlecomedown View Post
    I think most of the public is already aware that firefighters do sleep for a portion of their shift. Most reasonable people have no problem with us having a set period of the day during which we are allowed to sleep (for us it's 2100-0700 the next morning), realizing that we are usually running calls during said period. Those that think we have it too easy and should reman awake for 24 hours probably won't be convinced otherwise by any argument.
    Did that often while in the military. I ended up in a situation where there were just 5 of us eligible to pull CQ duty. Got the duty once a week and just about every other weekend. The function was to answer the phone, watch the door to make sure unauthorized personnel did not gain entry, wake up the troops in the morning, or get them up when we went on alert. It was relegated to e-5ís and e-6ís. Falling asleep meant you no longer got the duty because you would no longer be an e-5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    There is a reason most places dont work 8 hour shifts....and it has little to do with rest. A clown like you wouldnt understand any of that though.
    Why not 12 hour shifts?

    But really, what are the reasons? Makes it easier to hold a second job?

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