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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Did that often while in the military. I ended up in a situation where there were just 5 of us eligible to pull CQ duty. Got the duty once a week and just about every other weekend. The function was to answer the phone, watch the door to make sure unauthorized personnel did not gain entry, wake up the troops in the morning, or get them up when we went on alert. It was relegated to e-5’s and e-6’s. Falling asleep meant you no longer got the duty because you would no longer be an e-5.
    Good job. But, all of these duties sound relatively undemanding. Imagine coming into work at 0700, checking the rig(s), performing general station duties, running 8-10 calls, some of which are protracted med., HAZMAT or MVC situations, cooking dinner, catching an apartment fire and then having to make it to 0745 (relief) with no sleep.

    If your house is struck by lighting at 0300, and your attic catches fire, do you want the crews responding to have caught a nap (at least), or would you rather deal with some jokers that are loopy and stressed out from having to drink coffee all day because they aren't allowed to rest while on shift?

    And how would a department that doesn't allow its firefighters to sleep explain the MVCs that result from these worn out dudes drifting off while driving home?


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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    There is a reason most places dont work 8 hour shifts....and it has little to do with rest. A clown like you wouldnt understand any of that though.
    Actually NYCK, anything over 8 hours normal shift is the exception, not the rule. FF, Military will work 24s, Oilpatch & const may work 10 or 12s. Simple fact is that no one working 24 will be at optimal alertnessor cognitive awareness 24 straight. Thus there are a lot of different allowances made in respect to the fire service.

  3. #43
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Actually NYCK, anything over 8 hours normal shift is the exception, not the rule. FF, Military will work 24s, Oilpatch & const may work 10 or 12s. Simple fact is that no one working 24 will be at optimal alertnessor cognitive awareness 24 straight. Thus there are a lot of different allowances made in respect to the fire service.
    I think he was speaking of the fire service when he said most places don't work 8 hour shifts.

    Being that this a discussion about a Firefighter, on a message board populated mostly by Firefighters.

    But I could be wrong.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    I think he was speaking of the fire service when he said most places don't work 8 hour shifts.

    Being that this a discussion about a Firefighter, on a message board populated mostly by Firefighters.

    But I could be wrong.
    You probably are correct. I don't know of any FD working straight 8s. My apologies for misunderstanding.

  5. #45
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    does that mean we get meal breaks where we get to shut down the company? You know since breaks are required by law in many states for "normal" jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlecomedown View Post
    Good job. But, all of these duties sound relatively undemanding. Imagine coming into work at 0700, checking the rig(s), performing general station duties, running 8-10 calls, some of which are protracted med., HAZMAT or MVC situations, cooking dinner, catching an apartment fire and then having to make it to 0745 (relief) with no sleep.
    OK, Imagine getting up at 5:30. Working all day until 17:00. Then you don't get off duty until 7:00. Oh yea, on those days during the month when you happened to be on CQ and you went on alert, You didn't get to sleep all that day either. More than once I was up all night and then drove truck the next day. And I only bring this up to show that I did it. I don’t want to hear the walk a mile thing.....

    If your house is struck by lighting at 0300, and your attic catches fire, do you want the crews responding to have caught a nap (at least), or would you rather deal with some jokers that are loopy and stressed out from having to drink coffee all day because they aren't allowed to rest while on shift?

    And how would a department that doesn't allow its firefighters to sleep explain the MVCs that result from these worn out dudes drifting off while driving home?

    Simple solution. Work 12 or 14 hour shifts.

    From Fire Chief Shift change An article writtne 10 years ago.

    An article written 10 years ago.

    Although it requires no additional staff, the 10/14 schedule offers a variety of advantages and opportunities.

    Improved safety. Fatigue is a major factor in personnel safety. A physically and mentally challenging incident in the early hours of a 24-hour shift could subject fire personnel to injury or even death due to fatigue and decreased alertness at an incident that occurs later during the same shift. In addition, when personnel must handle multiple incidents during a single shift, the competence of the crews and the quality of service may be compromised. For example, is it in the best interest of someone needing sophisticated care to be the crew's 20th patient during a shift?

    The 10/14 shift can provide relief for fatigued and extremely busy individuals and crews through proper rest periods at the end of the 10- or 14-hour duty shift.

    Reduced sick leave time and overtime pay. Assuming that most employees are absent for a one-day period, implementing the 10/14 schedule can reduce sick leave time and overtime pay. On the first day of the absence, non-job-related illness and injury will result in a 10- or 14-hour absence from the scheduled work shift rather than 24 hours. If a department chooses to pay an employee overtime rather than run short, it will only have to pay for a split shift rather than a 24-hour one.

    Improved quality of life for personnel. Employees who work the 24-hour shift often complain that the schedule limits family contact. The 10/14 duty shift allows more frequent family contact opportunities, including eating dinner together if travel time to and from work is minimal.

    Increased productivity. Certain gains that aren't possible on the 24-hour shift can be achieved on the 10/14 duty schedule. With the exception of emergency response activities, the work day on the 24-hour shift terminates at 1700 and personnel go on a readiness/stand-by mode. Job-related activities from 1800 to 2200 hours, such as training, vehicle/building maintenance, code enforcement, public education, record-keeping and administrative tasks are an example of legitimate activities. There's no need for "make work" projects, as there's enough work to be done that will improve the organization.

    Improved project management. A split shift offers more continuity than a day-on, day-off arrangement. Personnel can be scheduled for four consecutive days, allowing them to complete projects more quickly.
    24-Hour Shifts May Endanger Patients and Employees From 2007

    In July 2006, Austin/Travis County (Texas) EMS changed its work schedules after seeing the results of a study in which EMS employees wore sleep/wake monitors on their wrists to determine their alertness levels and “micro sleep” periods (when people sleep briefly while appearing to be awake).

    ATCEMS presented some results of that study, which was conducted by Circadian Technologies Inc., a company that works with Harvard Medical School, on a poster at the Pinnacle Forum in St. Petersburg Beach, Fla., Aug. 8. The poster reported that 64% of ATCEMS paramedics found it “difficult” or “very difficult” to stay awake during 24-hour shifts, and 61.8% felt their health would improve with shorter shifts.

    According to ATCEMS Assistant Director Chris Callsen, the study revealed some other troubling findings, including that 44% of the medics reported nodding off several times a month during their shifts, 29% said they provide less than optimal patient care near the end of a 24-hour shift, 50% had accidents or near misses due to fatigue and 5% had fallen asleep while driving an ambulance.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Actually NYCK, anything over 8 hours normal shift is the exception, not the rule. FF, Military will work 24s, Oilpatch & const may work 10 or 12s. Simple fact is that no one working 24 will be at optimal alertnessor cognitive awareness 24 straight. Thus there are a lot of different allowances made in respect to the fire service.
    There has actually been a lot of research on this showing that schedules other than the 24 hour schedule or better for the employees and the public they serve. One of my biggest fears is that I need an ambulance at 5 or 6 am. Given the option I would wait until 7 to get the fresh alert guys. Problem is you don’t usually get the option.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    does that mean we get meal breaks where we get to shut down the company? You know since breaks are required by law in many states for "normal" jobs.
    Yes, it’s called rehab. Or you do like we do; we stagger our meals, that way someone is always on. And when it gets busy, we take late meals.

    Or you could model it after the retail industry. The stores never close and they all get their lunch breaks.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I'm not complaining at all, just pointing out that if the Chief can’t sleep on duty and still do his job then he either needs to find a new job or not sleep on the job.
    Call it whatever you want, but you've made more than one comment on these forums questioning our work conditions (like sleeping on duty) because a person can't do the same things at other jobs.

    I understand the point you are trying to make, but it seems to assume that this is a chronic situation for this person. I haven't seen any information presented to show a pattern of behavior other than that he routinely responds to his calls, thus making your comments inappropriate.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I understand the point you are trying to make
    YOU DO???

    Welcome to the forums, Dr. Doolittle!


    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    OK, Imagine getting up at 5:30. Working all day until 17:00. Then you don't get off duty until 7:00. Oh yea, on those days during the month when you happened to be on CQ and you went on alert, You didn't get to sleep all that day either. More than once I was up all night and then drove truck the next day. And I only bring this up to show that I did it. I don’t want to hear the walk a mile thing.....
    So this means that we shouldn't be allowed to sleep during the shift during down time?




    Although it requires no additional staff, the 10/14 schedule offers a variety of advantages and opportunities. It also has disadvantages.

    Improved safety. Fatigue is a major factor in personnel safety. A physically and mentally challenging incident in the early hours of a 24-hour shift could subject fire personnel to injury or even death due to fatigue and decreased alertness at an incident that occurs later during the same shift. Depending on a departments call volume, maybe being able to take a nap might avoid that problem. In addition, when personnel must handle multiple incidents during a single shift, the competence of the crews and the quality of service may be compromised. For example, is it in the best interest of someone needing sophisticated care to be the crew's 20th patient during a shift? That sounds kind of suspect to me. I can understand the possibility for a compromise due to fatigue in general, but to imply reduced competency because we need to do a specific task repeatedly (like treating that 20th pt) during the shift is silly. Usually additional experience leads to increased quality and competence. Isn't that why we train? Isn't that why sports teams practice?

    The 10/14 shift can provide relief for fatigued and extremely busy individuals and crews through proper rest periods at the end of the 10- or 14-hour duty shift. Yes, in some departments working the shorter shifts could have value, yet in others provide no real benefit for the most part.

    Reduced sick leave time and overtime pay. Assuming that most employees are absent for a one-day period, implementing the 10/14 schedule can reduce sick leave time and overtime pay. On the first day of the absence, non-job-related illness and injury will result in a 10- or 14-hour absence from the scheduled work shift rather than 24 hours. If a department chooses to pay an employee overtime rather than run short, it will only have to pay for a split shift rather than a 24-hour one. This is true, but it ignores the fact that if the employee was working for example, a 24/72 schedule, then it's possible that they wouldn't need to utilize that sick time at all, because they are already not working that day. You also have to worry about shift overruns only once a day rather than twice a day.

    Improved quality of life for personnel. Employees who work the 24-hour shift often complain that the schedule limits family contact. The 10/14 duty shift allows more frequent family contact opportunities, including eating dinner together if travel time to and from work is minimal. I disagree. I work a 24/72 schedule which allows me to be home at least 5 full days per week. That sounds like a lot of family contact time to me. My schedule kept my daughter from having to go to daycare while my wife was still working full-time.

    Increased productivity. Certain gains that aren't possible on the 24-hour shift can be achieved on the 10/14 duty schedule. With the exception of emergency response activities, the work day on the 24-hour shift terminates at 1700 and personnel go on a readiness/stand-by mode. Job-related activities from 1800 to 2200 hours, such as training, vehicle/building maintenance, code enforcement, public education, record-keeping and administrative tasks are an example of legitimate activities. There's no need for "make work" projects, as there's enough work to be done that will improve the organization. I'm not quite sure how bringing in a new shift at 5pm increases productivity. Other than training, most of that other stuff normally takes place during "business hours" because for many of us, that's when we have access to the necessary resources to address those maintenance issues, when business are open to conduct most code enforcement and public education (specifically with the schools).

    Improved project management. A split shift offers more continuity than a day-on, day-off arrangement. Personnel can be scheduled for four consecutive days, allowing them to complete projects more quickly. Well, for the most part, in my department, we don't have many "projects" and it's not much of a problem to pass of to the oncoming crew if needed - we do it for incidents that extend past shift change.
    Both are valid schedule options, but one is not unquestionably better than the other and they should be looked at in context with the work situation, not in the abstract or generalities, when attempting to determine what work schedule should be used.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 09-05-2009 at 06:35 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    YOU DO???

    Welcome to the forums, Dr. Doolittle!


    Yeah, I've had some experience communicating with people who don't make much sense.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, it’s called rehab. Or you do like we do; we stagger our meals, that way someone is always on. And when it gets busy, we take late meals.

    Or you could model it after the retail industry. The stores never close and they all get their lunch breaks.
    This statement alone proves that you have absolutely no idea what it is like or means to be in a fire house for 24 hours. You therefore cannot intelligently contribute to the conversation. Go babble in some other thread or another board about the weather, basket weaving, or your security job.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Why not 12 hour shifts?

    But really, what are the reasons? Makes it easier to hold a second job?
    You think the cities we work for give a f*ck about us having the ability to work a second job? LOL....For many places, switching from their current schedules to 8 hour tours would create a need for more manpower (I wont do your homework for you, but there was a study done about 6 years ago that backs this claim). Not to mention that no city who runs a decent amount would want the FD to work 8 hours....late runs = OT $$$. This is a common theme in many contract negotiations in larger cities.....Taking away our workchart (and by ours, I dont just mean NYC, other cities have gone through the same thing as well) has been and will always be a point of contention.


    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Actually NYCK, anything over 8 hours normal shift is the exception, not the rule. FF, Military will work 24s, Oilpatch & const may work 10 or 12s. Simple fact is that no one working 24 will be at optimal alertnessor cognitive awareness 24 straight. Thus there are a lot of different allowances made in respect to the fire service.
    Did you honestly believe I didnt know that the fire service is the exception to the rule? How old do you think I am?


    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    I think he was speaking of the fire service when he said most places don't work 8 hour shifts.

    Being that this a discussion about a Firefighter, on a message board populated mostly by Firefighters.

    But I could be wrong.
    Yessir.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 09-05-2009 at 07:37 PM.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post


    How old do you think I am?
    I think you're young and quite possibly supple, but we'll talk about that later!
    IAFF

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I think you're young and quite possibly supple, but we'll talk about that later!
    So you did get my email then. Great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So this means that we shouldn't be allowed to sleep during the shift during down time?
    Never said that. However, if by you sleeping it interferes with your ability to do the job when needed then nope you shouldn't sleep.

    Both are valid schedule options, but one is not unquestionably better than the other and they should be looked at in context with the work situation, not in the abstract or generalities, when attempting to determine what work schedule should be used.
    On this we can agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    This statement alone proves that you have absolutely no idea what it is like or means to be in a fire house for 24 hours. You therefore cannot intelligently contribute to the conversation. Go babble in some other thread or another board about the weather, basket weaving, or your security job.

    Ohh I have a very good idea. It's just that I have the ability to look at things and perhaps change for the better. I'm not stuck in tradition where we all have to eat at the same time.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    You think the cities we work for give a f*ck about us having the ability to work a second job? LOL....For many places, switching from their current schedules to 8 hour tours would create a need for more manpower (I wont do your homework for you, but there was a study done about 6 years ago that backs this claim). Not to mention that no city who runs a decent amount would want the FD to work 8 hours....late runs = OT $$$. This is a common theme in many contract negotiations in larger cities.....Taking away our workchart (and by ours, I dont just mean NYC, other cities have gone through the same thing as well) has been and will always be a point of contention.
    But the union that represents you does. Switching form 8 hour schedules to 24 hour schedules would have no affect on the number of man hours required per week. There are 3 - 8 hour shifts in a 24 hour shift. So whether you get your weekly hours in two 24 hour settings or 6- 8 hour settings does not change the total number of man-hours per week. In fact, by using varied shifts you could more efficiently staff the station for busy times and slow times. According to USFA fire departments are busiest between 12 noon and 12 midnight. It only makes sense that there should be ore staff on during busy hours.

    Apparently you didn't look at the links posted. They show that it is actually better for you and the community to work shorter shifts.

  20. #60
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    But the union that represents you does. Switching form 8 hour schedules to 24 hour schedules would have no affect on the number of man hours required per week. There are 3 - 8 hour shifts in a 24 hour shift. So whether you get your weekly hours in two 24 hour settings or 6- 8 hour settings does not change the total number of man-hours per week. In fact, by using varied shifts you could more efficiently staff the station for busy times and slow times. According to USFA fire departments are busiest between 12 noon and 12 midnight. It only makes sense that there should be ore staff on during busy hours.

    Apparently you didn't look at the links posted. They show that it is actually better for you and the community to work shorter shifts.
    LOL......

    I had a long drawn out reply to this, explaining everything to you in black and white....but its simply not worth it. You have no common sense, Do not understand how large municipalities work, and are simply a troll. As for your links...LOL....there are plenty of resources that show its better for us and the "community" (yeah, my community really gives a f*ck what tours we work) when we work 24 or even 48 hour shifts. So while I think its great you learned how to use Google....you should go for some unbiased info next time....or at least use your head and research BOTH sides of the issue before declaring victory.
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