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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Ohh I have a very good idea. It's just that I have the ability to look at things and perhaps change for the better. I'm not stuck in tradition where we all have to eat at the same time.
    No, I really don't think you do.

    First of all, I think you missed the earlier point regarding "breaks". It wasn't about "rehabbing" at a fire, it was about not getting an actual break period where you wouldn't be responding to calls.

    Second of all, if we were truly stuck in tradition, then we'd still be working for days at a time with little time off at all.

    Now as for how we eat, not all of us do meals the same way. Some stations will prepare a common meal, while others don't. Some of us can't exactly leave somebody behind on a "meal break" when calls come in. If we did that in my department, then I could've been responding to some calls by myself.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    But the union that represents you does. Switching form 8 hour schedules to 24 hour schedules would have no affect on the number of man hours required per week. There are 3 - 8 hour shifts in a 24 hour shift. So whether you get your weekly hours in two 24 hour settings or 6- 8 hour settings does not change the total number of man-hours per week.
    You would be correct that the number of man hours would remain constant, however it's just not that simple.

    First, since the theory is that shorter shifts are better for you, we're looking at working 6 days per week in order to get those 6 8-hour shifts in.

    Second, you assume that we work a constant number of hours each week. The 24/72 schedule is 4 week rotation of 3 48-hour weeks and 1 24-hour week. This averages out to 42-hours per week. Sure you could work 5 8-hr shifts, but what about those extra 2 hours each week?

    In fact, by using varied shifts you could more efficiently staff the station for busy times and slow times. According to USFA fire departments are busiest between 12 noon and 12 midnight. It only makes sense that there should be ore staff on during busy hours.
    Sure, for many businesses and such it makes sense to up staff for peak hours. However, that doesn't quite work easily for the fire service unless you're talking about adding actual units rather than just personnel.

    Our staffing is based more on personnel needed for the calls when they happen and how quickly we can get units to a scene rather than on the number of actual calls for service. Additionally, having more calls during a specific time period in and of itself is incomplete information to base fire staffing on.

    If you're talking about adding equally staffed units during peak periods that's one thing, but if we're talking about adjusting unit staffing so that for example, units with a normal staffing of 4 are now staffed with 5 during those peak hours and only 3 during off peak hours, that doesn't work so well.

    I don't readily have the numbers in front of me, but my department runs significantly less calls from midnight to 8a, than during those "peak hours" of 12p to 12a, but we a significantly higher percentage of working fires during the overnight period. So using that peak staffing idea, we'd be short guys when we'd need them the most and heavy guys when we wouldn't so much.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Ohh I have a very good idea. It's just that I have the ability to look at things and perhaps change for the better.
    No, you don't have any idea, and you only think you have an ability to "look at things differently".

    A split tour system, meaning a day shift/night shift combo has two shift changes per 24 hour period.
    Because of this fact, you have now doubled the likelihood of the off-going shift picking up a run at shift change. This automatically means that the members going past shift need to be compensated appropriately. One shift change per 24 hour period reduces that chance, going to three shifts per 24 hours and it's now tripled. Remember, you're talking about four guys per rig on each alarm that extends past their shift; oh wait, you probably think we should do that for free, right?

    Now try doing this with a major fire or incident that lasts several hours. Often enough we have incidents that will last 10, 12 hours or even longer. Tell us oh brain trust, how do you handle the logistics of getting guys off and on shift multiple times for the same alarm. Try changing out fifty or a hundred guys at an incident just once around shift change, and now you want to try to do it twice, or even three times? C'mon, get real. It would be a logistical nightmare, and an accountability fiasco, never mind expensive for the tax payer.

    And you also aren't considering that by us being on 24 hour shifts, we are under a different segment of the FLSA that says we don't have to be paid true overtime until we reach 212 hours per 28 calendar days. By switching us to eight hour shifts, or less than 24 hour employees, we would earn true overtime for anything over 40 hours per week. That's an automatic of 9 hours of premium pay for here, per week, per employee.
    Being the concerned, fiscally sound tax-payer you claim to be, that should be enough for you to oppose that change. I wouldn't mind the extra money, but I still prefer my schedule.

    Again, please stick to something you know, please, just once.
    Last edited by jasper45; 09-05-2009 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You would be correct that the number of man hours would remain constant, however it's just not that simple.

    First, since the theory is that shorter shifts are better for you, we're looking at working 6 days per week in order to get those 6 8-hour shifts in.

    Second, you assume that we work a constant number of hours each week. The 24/72 schedule is 4 week rotation of 3 48-hour weeks and 1 24-hour week. This averages out to 42-hours per week. Sure you could work 5 8-hr shifts, but what about those extra 2 hours each week?


    Sure, for many businesses and such it makes sense to up staff for peak hours. However, that doesn't quite work easily for the fire service unless you're talking about adding actual units rather than just personnel.

    Our staffing is based more on personnel needed for the calls when they happen and how quickly we can get units to a scene rather than on the number of actual calls for service. Additionally, having more calls during a specific time period in and of itself is incomplete information to base fire staffing on.

    If you're talking about adding equally staffed units during peak periods that's one thing, but if we're talking about adjusting unit staffing so that for example, units with a normal staffing of 4 are now staffed with 5 during those peak hours and only 3 during off peak hours, that doesn't work so well.

    I don't readily have the numbers in front of me, but my department runs significantly less calls from midnight to 8a, than during those "peak hours" of 12p to 12a, but we a significantly higher percentage of working fires during the overnight period. So using that peak staffing idea, we'd be short guys when we'd need them the most and heavy guys when we wouldn't so much.


    Again, this depends on the department. If you are only running fire calls and no EMS then the staffing would more than likely remain constant. If you are running EMS then it depends on how many rigs you run out of a station.

    Also, we all have contingency plans in place to deal with those times when the incident overwhelms our resources.

    Staffing for peak times would work better in larger departments. Many smaller departments only have duty crews of 5 or 7 now, it would be difficult to run with fewer than that.

  5. #65
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    Ohh I have a very good idea.
    No you don't.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    No, you don't have any idea, and you only think you have an ability to "look at things differently".

    A split tour system, meaning a day shift/night shift combo has two shift changes per 24 hour period.
    Because of this fact, you have now doubled the likelihood of the off-going shift picking up a run at shift change. This automatically means that the members going past shift need to be compensated appropriately. One shift change per 24 hour period reduces that chance, going to three shifts per 24 hours and it's now tripled. Remember, you're talking about four guys per rig on each alarm that extends past their shift; oh wait, you probably think we should do that for free, right?

    Now try doing this with a major fire or incident that lasts several hours. Often enough we have incidents that will last 10, 12 hours or even longer. Tell us oh brain trust, how do you handle the logistics of getting guys off and on shift multiple times for the same alarm. Try changing out fifty or a hundred guys at an incident just once around shift change, and now you want to try to do it twice, or even three times? C'mon, get real. It would be a logistical nightmare, and an accountability fiasco, never mind expensive for the tax payer.
    This happens all the time. Look to the west to see how it is done. In fact, we have had incidents that have lasted several days. Come to think of it, it is basic ICS stuff. Not a big deal.

    And you also aren't considering that by us being on 24 hour shifts, we are under a different segment of the FLSA that says we don't have to be paid true overtime until we reach 212 hours per 28 calendar days. By switching us to eight hour shifts, or less than 24 hour employees, we would earn true overtime for anything over 40 hours per week. That's an automatic of 9 hours of premium pay for here, per week, per employee.
    Being the concerned, fiscally sound tax-payer you claim to be, that should be enough for you to oppose that change. I wouldn't mind the extra money, but I still prefer my schedule.

    FLSA Overtime

    Government police officers, fire fighters, and (some) EMS employees may be paid either on the standard 40 hour work week or on so-called "7(k)" systems (which are also sometimes called "Garcia cycles"). 29 USC ß207(k). In 7(k) systems, FLSA overtime pay is due if, when, and to the extent a police officer, fire fighter or EMS employee actually works more than the number of hours specified by the Department of Labor as applying to a particular "work period." For example, under a "14 day 7(k) work period" system a police officer is due FLSA overtime pay only if, when and to the extent actual hours worked exceed 86 in the 14 day work period. Under a "28 day 7(k) work period" a fire fighter is due FLSA overtime pay only if, when and to the extent actual hours worked exceed 212 in the 28 day work period. Permissible work periods may be from 7 to 28 days, and the FLSA overtime thresholds applicable to particular work periods are set out in a chart published in the FLSA regulations. 29 CFR ß553.230.

    A government employer may choose to use a 40 hour work week or a 7(k) system at its option, and may use a 7(k) system for FLSA compliance purposes even if it actually pays its employees on the basis of 40 hour work weeks. To use a 7(k) system for FLSA purposes requires only that the employer establish such a system (for example, by issuing a policy statement to that effect), and that the affected employees actually work on a schedule which repeats and recurs on some multiple of between 7 and 28 days. Which particular 7(k) threshold applies depends mostly on what the employees' schedule is. For 7(k) systems, pay computations mostly follow the regular FLSA rules, with the "work period" being substituted for the normal "work week."

    Alternative 7(k) work period systems are not available to private sector (non-government) employers, which (with the exception of medical care personnel) must pay nonexempt employees based on 40 hour work weeks. For government employers, 7(k) systems are available for "sworn" fire fighters (even if their primary work is medical) or police officers. In some unusual situations "non-sworn" EMS employees may possibly qualify for 7(k) "law enforcement" pay plans.
    (k) Employment by public agency engaged in fire protection or law enforcement activities No public agency shall be deemed to have violated subsection (a) of this section with respect to the employment of any employee in fire protection activities or any employee in law enforcement activities (including security personnel in correctional institutions) if - (1) in a work period of 28 consecutive days the employee receives for tours of duty which in the aggregate exceed the lesser of (A) 216 hours, or (B) the average number of hours (as determined by the Secretary pursuant to section 6(c)(3) of the Fair Labor Standards Amendments of 1974) in tours of duty of employees engaged in such activities in work periods of 28 consecutive days in calendar year 1975; or (2) in the case of such an employee to whom a work period of at least 7 but less than 28 days applies, in his work period the employee receives for tours of duty which in the aggregate exceed a number of hours which bears the same ratio to the number of consecutive days in his work period as 216 hours (or if lower, the number of hours referred to in clause (B) of paragraph (1)) bears to 28 days, compensation at a rate not less than one and one-half times the regular rate at which he is employed.
    Again, please stick to something you know, please, just once.
    Funny you should mention this. As it turns out I was trying to get 24 hour days for our operation here. I would love nothing more than to work 2 days a week. And since we are salaried , overtime isnít an issue. Turns out, none of the research supported the longer shifts. All of the research showed that after 8 hours of work performance fell off and mistakes increased.

    If you looked at the links I posted earlier you will find that Austin Texas actually studied this and found that the 10/14 schedule was the best for both employees as well as the public being served. Hospitals actually noticed a decrease in the number of clinical errors.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    This happens all the time. Look to the west to see how it is done. In fact, we have had incidents that have lasted several days. Come to think of it, it is basic ICS stuff. Not a big deal.
    Just what everyone needs...an ICS lecture from Paul Blart. I'm sure you have a very impressive list of quals in IQCS, like Retail Theft Investigator, Food Court Cruiser Type-1, Strike Team Leader-Golf Cart, and Single Resource Boss-Mall Cop Gaggle.
    Hey, it's cool...I used to be a "security professional" too... but look, just because you failed the entrance exam for the police academy, and the CPAT for the fire one, don't take out your frustrations on us.

    On-district when there's no fires, FS/BLM/BIA/NPS/et al work 8 hr days... bad thing is if there's a fire after-hours, it takes more than an hour to staff-up an Engine on call-back most times.
    Granted, most structure depts wouldn't have the long commute most of us do, but still, nobody wants to wait even 10 mins for an Engine to be rollin out the door, and rightly so.

    Also, just food for thought with "working 24 hrs straight".... recent studies have shown that people at the end of a 16 hr shift have judgment and coordination impaired equivalent to a BAC of .04... after 24hrs you're the equivalent of having a BAC of .08. You wouldn't let your Engineer drive if he's had even one beer... why would you allow someone to have the equivalent of .08 due to fatigue on the fireground?!
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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  8. #68
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    well i hope the bc got his job back and the public is protected

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    Just what everyone needs...an ICS lecture from Paul Blart. I'm sure you have a very impressive list of quals in IQCS, like Retail Theft Investigator, Food Court Cruiser Type-1, Strike Team Leader-Golf Cart, and Single Resource Boss-Mall Cop Gaggle.
    Hey, it's cool...I used to be a "security professional" too... but look, just because you failed the entrance exam for the police academy, and the CPAT for the fire one, don't take out your frustrations on us.

    On-district when there's no fires, FS/BLM/BIA/NPS/et al work 8 hr days... bad thing is if there's a fire after-hours, it takes more than an hour to staff-up an Engine on call-back most times.
    Granted, most structure depts wouldn't have the long commute most of us do, but still, nobody wants to wait even 10 mins for an Engine to be rollin out the door, and rightly so.

    Also, just food for thought with "working 24 hrs straight".... recent studies have shown that people at the end of a 16 hr shift have judgment and coordination impaired equivalent to a BAC of .04... after 24hrs you're the equivalent of having a BAC of .08. You wouldn't let your Engineer drive if he's had even one beer... why would you allow someone to have the equivalent of .08 due to fatigue on the fireground?!
    Exactly my point. 24 hour shifts are a danger to the fire fighters and the public we protect. Thanks for the backup.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Exactly my point. 24 hour shifts are a danger to the fire fighters and the public we protect. Thanks for the backup.
    Your intelect is stunning.

    In your case a 1 minute shift would be dangerous.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Exactly my point. 24 hour shifts are a danger to the fire fighters and the public we protect. Thanks for the backup.
    ....back you up, Harry? I think not.
    My point was to let them rest... then again, here's a math problem for ya, since you're so bad at it, "Frenchie": if you (I mean you, personally) lose 1 IQ point for every hour you're awake, and stayed up for a 24 as you campaigned for... what would your IQ be at the end of the shift?























    Give up? Thought you would. -23.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    ....back you up, Harry? I think not.
    My point was to let them rest...
    Also, just food for thought with "working 24 hrs straight".... recent studies have shown that people at the end of a 16 hr shift have judgment and coordination impaired equivalent to a BAC of .04... after 24hrs you're the equivalent of having a BAC of .08. You wouldn't let your Engineer drive if he's had even one beer... why would you allow someone to have the equivalent of .08 due to fatigue on the fireground?!
    How do you know you won't be working the entire 24 hours? What is to say you won't have calls the entire 24 hour shift.

  13. #73
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    Default Hey! Down here!! Yoo hooo!

    Hey Scarecrow,

    I only have a few years on the line with my department (State wide, half paid, half POC members - 7,500 ff's) But I am also a history buff

    We currently run 10/14's in 95% of our full time stn's........we sleep on our nights (2200-0600).....some stns don't get to recline, others do

    Just 20 years ago we were running 8 hour shifts....

    The guys I work with now will gladly tell you about standing out the front of our main stn in Sydney and asking fit blokes if they wanted a job (This was part of their duties)....WHY??

    Because working 8 hr rotating shifts for the money we are paid is crazy....who would do it and give up most of you weekends and have one day off every 7.
    NO ONE WANTED TO DO THE JOB!!

    Most of us need to have a second job to help pay the bills. You can't do this running 8's. If you try, you will get someone killed due to being exhausted. Our HQ had standing orders forbidding FF's from having secondary employment to stop this....yep that's gonna get them in the door...have a below avg wage and no, you can't go earn more!

    Lets see.....work 8hrs hours at firehouse, go to second job for 8 hours, go home and sleep for 6-7 hours (travel time, feeding, saying hi to partner as you stumble past accounts for 2 hours) REPEAT

    I don't think so timmy....

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    How do you know you won't be working the entire 24 hours? What is to say you won't have calls the entire 24 hour shift.
    Well, for many of us, it's the fact that historically we don't run calls for anywhere close to "the entire 24 hour shift".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Again, this depends on the department. If you are only running fire calls and no EMS then the staffing would more than likely remain constant. If you are running EMS then it depends on how many rigs you run out of a station.

    Also, we all have contingency plans in place to deal with those times when the incident overwhelms our resources.

    Staffing for peak times would work better in larger departments.
    You didn't answer my question. Are you talking about changing the staffing levels on the units or changing the number of units in service for these peak/non-peak times?

    Many smaller departments only have duty crews of 5 or 7 now, it would be difficult to run with fewer than that.
    It is, I've done it in my department. It can also be quite a challenge on some calls with only 5-7 on-duty (like we do now).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Well, for many of us, it's the fact that historically we don't run calls for anywhere close to "the entire 24 hour shift".
    I had originally put in a comment to be careful about how you answer the question. Then I removed it. This was the exact response I wanted. Now think about this from the tax payer point of view, the guy who actually does have to work the entire time he is at work.

    So you aren't working the entire time, you want to work a 24 hour shift, and you want to sleep while working. Talk about the best of all worlds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You didn't answer my question. Are you talking about changing the staffing levels on the units or changing the number of units in service for these peak/non-peak times?

    It is, I've done it in my department. It can also be quite a challenge on some calls with only 5-7 on-duty (like we do now).
    Again this is department dependent. In your case, you have 5 to 7 on duty and only do fire calls. Hard to vary that at all. In larger cities with multiple stations you can reduce staffing on each rig, with more rigs responding form other areas. Obviously response times go down at 3 am as traffic levels are lower. If you are doing EMS instead of having 4 rigs ready to go you might have just 2 rigs.

    It also depends on your mutual aid agreements as well. I know around here the paid guys don't even hesitate to call in volunteers for help. Matter of fact, often they call the volunteers before calling in other paid departments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    This was the exact response I wanted. Now think about this from the tax payer point of view, the guy who actually does have to work the entire time he is at work.
    This was the exact admission I wanted...you're a troll.

    So you aren't working the entire time, you want to work a 24 hour shift, and you want to sleep while working. Talk about the best of all worlds.
    Exactly, it IS the best of all words... hence your impotent jealous rage about it. Like I said--couldn't pass the police academy entrance exam, failed the CPAT (judging by your post counts, apparently haulin your butt out of the computer chair qualifies as "cardio" for you), so now you're comin on here and cryin. lol. It's quite cute, really.
    Did the city council laugh you out of their chambers when you brought this argument up? So the best you can do is come here and sniffle-sniffle cry-cry? lmao. Pathetic, really.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    This was the exact admission I wanted...you're a troll.


    Exactly, it IS the best of all words... hence your impotent jealous rage about it. Like I said--couldn't pass the police academy entrance exam, failed the CPAT (judging by your post counts, apparently haulin your butt out of the computer chair qualifies as "cardio" for you), so now you're comin on here and cryin. lol. It's quite cute, really.
    Did the city council laugh you out of their chambers when you brought this argument up? So the best you can do is come here and sniffle-sniffle cry-cry? lmao. Pathetic, really.
    In case you missed it Mr. Pot Stirrer, you had a chief he failed to do his job because he slept through the call. In my book first offense, counseling, second offense 15 days, third offense fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    This was the exact admission I wanted...you're a troll.
    Give the man a cigar. Not only a troll, but he's not even a firefighter or an engineer.

    He's Paul Blart, Security Dude.

    No wonder he's jealous.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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