Small FF vs Hose?
I am a relatively small fellow who is in fairly good physical shape (USMC) but after 10-15 mins of holding onto a 1 3/4" line I am really feeling it. We use nozzles with no pistol grip btw. Is there any technique of holding onto this that will allow for better long term flow?
If you're flowing an 1.75" line for 10-15 minutes straight there are a few things to consider:
Originally Posted by regal1975
1. Was this the right choice for this fire? Maybe more GPM was called for?
2. Is this defensive? If so, again consider the 2.5".
3. What is the nozzle reaction? Are your nozzles 100 psi fog? What are you trying to flow?(gpm)
4. If you're flowing and not moving, you can use the loop technique most use with 2.5" . Make a big loop in the nozzle end of the line and pass the nozzle under the loop toward the fire leaving about 2ft outside to the nozzle. Sit on or just behind where the hose crosses.
I still think you need to question constantly flowing a 1.75" line. 10-15 minutes is a long time to be open flowing an offensive attack line.
As far as your question goes re: pistol grips vs none, here's my take, for what it's worth.
I don't believe that pistol grips necessarily provide any benefit when using a nozzle for offensive fire attack. The positioning of the body and extremities when using a pistol grip, for many people, results in poor body mechanics, a greater physical energy demand, and less mobility which results in poorer nozzle technique and effectiveness. Whether the nozzle has a pistol grip or not, holding the hose a little further out in front of you with your right arm tucked around the line, or holding it against your body, and the left holding the hose just behind the nozzle coupling (reversed of course if you are dominant on the other side) will make it far easier to control the nozzle and line and will help mitigate some of the back pressure from nozzle reaction. It's hard to describe in writing but this method gives you lots of control and mobility with the nozzle. You can easily hit the ceiling to get any fire there or cool "black fire" and/or gases, sweep the floor in front of you, get a good nozzle "whip", and direct the nozzle behind you should you end up with fire there. I also believe it's far easier to advance the line along during attack with this method.
Another mistake I've seen when using a nozzle in offensive fire attack is keeping the hand on the bale and adjusting that to maintain control. In a full-on fire attack, the bale should be opened fully to give you maximal flow and proper technique used to manage nozzle reaction. Of course for mop-up or overhaul, there's not really anything wrong with using the pistol grip or bale adjustment.
That being said, there are some monsters that can do just fine using it the other way! And as RFDACM02 said, 10-15 minutes straight is quite a bit of time for that, no matter who you are!
I hope this helps.
Both of the other posters summed it up.
Why flow a 1.75" line for 15 minutes? Get a 2.5"!
And the lack of pistol grip doesn't have any effect - if you were to use the grip to assist you, you're not holding the nozzle correctly anyway. :cool:
WOW, my sentiments exactly! I've been trying to get my crews to practice 2 1/2 loops, pin and hits, and three man evolutions. Ya gotta learn to use the big dawg if yer gonna knock it fast.
Originally Posted by RFDACM02
My 2 cents...
What is your backup man doing? Being the nozzleman you should not be working that hard to hold the hose.
Also is the time of 15 minutes during practice? I can understand that long in practice. But whether I have used a 1.75 or 2.5 I do not think I have ever had to do 15 continous minutes.
As for how to make it easier... Listen to most of the things that have already been stated and also talk with your training officer. Do not be ashamed to say something is hard on you. If the training officer is good at his job he can fix it for you by showing you some other techniques.
Try using or making a hose strap.. make a large loop of a piece of webbing, tie a girth hitch around the hose a several feet back from the nozzle, and pass the other end of the loop over your opposite (leading) shoulder.
All good responses so far. A couple things I'd add....are you sure your pump operator is pumping at the appropriate pressure? If the same operator is typically flowing when you're on the line maybe it's his error or miscalculation. If it's an adjustable gallonage nozzle is it set at the right flow rate?
Overall though, 10 to 15 minutes with the line open for an interior attack means something else is wrong, not the way you're holding the line. Either you're using the wrong size line, you're not really hitting the seat of the fire, or you shouldn't be in there. Some of my most well involved interior attacks still only had an open line for a minute or two at a time....you periodically will be shutting down (briefly) to advance, readjust, or even stop and listen to your surroundings. Overall I may have been attacking the fire for an accumulated 10-15 minutes, but never has it been open that entire length of time.
If you're not going offensive, why not make a kenein(sp?) loop?
Gun fighter`s stance
Pistol grip does not make anything easier.To give your self a little more control over the hoseline use a "gun-fighters stance" You were in the military so this should be familiar. Use a wide stance, feet should be a little wider than shoulder width apart, give a slight bend at the knees. Also you want to slightly lean into the nozzle,almost like you are leaning into the wind. Try to get the hoseline to rest on your thigh if possible.A good back-up man helps also but either way you cut it your gonna get tired I dont care how big you are.
I suspect that the "gun fighters" technique would not be advantageous in an offensive interior attack.
I believe it's Kenna, but I don't know who it was name after. Anyone know? I've also heard it referred to as a "Chicago Loop". It's definitely a great tool for when you're just hanging out lobbing water. One guy on a 2 1/2" line with very easy control!
Originally Posted by Mustang281
Here's what I know.....
The ways that I've been shown/trained to hold hose no matter what the Pump Pressure is are: Hose Strap, "Q" up the line (aka Exposure Loop; works even during Offensive Fire Attack. All you have to do is pull a little bit more line into the Structure and make a small loop and either sit or lay on it) and "Bend it like Becham" (take the hose infront of you; like how far out you want your cack to be, and shape it into an S, use your knee to help bend the hoseline this way the Nozzle Reaction is displaced along your hip and upper legs and not your arms).
If this works for ya' then sit back and enjoy. If not, then try numerous ways while training or ask your Senior Firemen, Engineers and Captains.
Still curious as to what this is.
Originally Posted by mtngael
Two weeks ago we were defensive on an apartment complex fire and a ff from another department showed a friend of mine a different way to control a hose. He had the hose running toward him from his front and then looped the nozzle back toward the fire in a big vertical loop. Sort of a backward "C" away from you with the loop against your leg so your leg and hip took most of the nozzle reaction. Is this what a Kenna or Kenein loop is?
I am thinking the kenna or chicago loop is what i have heard called a street loop. you just form a circle with the hose pass the nozzle back under the hose and sit where the two cross each other. have like three feet in front of you and lift the hose up to flow.
I prefer to just pin the hose to the ground with my knee about three ft behind the nozzle and then flow. Each to their own i guess. this makes you more moblie just shut down and move to a new spot or change to offensive.
As for a 1 3/4 never had a problem, but i dont use the pistol grips. to qoute a old salty lt. "pistol grips promote bad habits".
Also smoothbores have less reaction force then a standard fog nozzle. but that is another debate