Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
Closed Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    11

    Default Small FF vs Hose?

    I am a relatively small fellow who is in fairly good physical shape (USMC) but after 10-15 mins of holding onto a 1 3/4" line I am really feeling it. We use nozzles with no pistol grip btw. Is there any technique of holding onto this that will allow for better long term flow?


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by regal1975 View Post
    I am a relatively small fellow who is in fairly good physical shape (USMC) but after 10-15 mins of holding onto a 1 3/4" line I am really feeling it. We use nozzles with no pistol grip btw. Is there any technique of holding onto this that will allow for better long term flow?
    If you're flowing an 1.75" line for 10-15 minutes straight there are a few things to consider:
    1. Was this the right choice for this fire? Maybe more GPM was called for?
    2. Is this defensive? If so, again consider the 2.5".
    3. What is the nozzle reaction? Are your nozzles 100 psi fog? What are you trying to flow?(gpm)
    4. If you're flowing and not moving, you can use the loop technique most use with 2.5" . Make a big loop in the nozzle end of the line and pass the nozzle under the loop toward the fire leaving about 2ft outside to the nozzle. Sit on or just behind where the hose crosses.

    I still think you need to question constantly flowing a 1.75" line. 10-15 minutes is a long time to be open flowing an offensive attack line.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    126

    Default

    As far as your question goes re: pistol grips vs none, here's my take, for what it's worth.

    I don't believe that pistol grips necessarily provide any benefit when using a nozzle for offensive fire attack. The positioning of the body and extremities when using a pistol grip, for many people, results in poor body mechanics, a greater physical energy demand, and less mobility which results in poorer nozzle technique and effectiveness. Whether the nozzle has a pistol grip or not, holding the hose a little further out in front of you with your right arm tucked around the line, or holding it against your body, and the left holding the hose just behind the nozzle coupling (reversed of course if you are dominant on the other side) will make it far easier to control the nozzle and line and will help mitigate some of the back pressure from nozzle reaction. It's hard to describe in writing but this method gives you lots of control and mobility with the nozzle. You can easily hit the ceiling to get any fire there or cool "black fire" and/or gases, sweep the floor in front of you, get a good nozzle "whip", and direct the nozzle behind you should you end up with fire there. I also believe it's far easier to advance the line along during attack with this method.

    Another mistake I've seen when using a nozzle in offensive fire attack is keeping the hand on the bale and adjusting that to maintain control. In a full-on fire attack, the bale should be opened fully to give you maximal flow and proper technique used to manage nozzle reaction. Of course for mop-up or overhaul, there's not really anything wrong with using the pistol grip or bale adjustment.

    That being said, there are some monsters that can do just fine using it the other way! And as RFDACM02 said, 10-15 minutes straight is quite a bit of time for that, no matter who you are!

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by mtngael; 09-05-2009 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #4
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,283

    Default

    Both of the other posters summed it up.

    Why flow a 1.75" line for 15 minutes? Get a 2.5"!

    And the lack of pistol grip doesn't have any effect - if you were to use the grip to assist you, you're not holding the nozzle correctly anyway.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Watching From The Sideline Now
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    If you're flowing an 1.75" line for 10-15 minutes straight there are a few things to consider:
    1. Was this the right choice for this fire? Maybe more GPM was called for?
    2. Is this defensive? If so, again consider the 2.5".
    3. What is the nozzle reaction? Are your nozzles 100 psi fog? What are you trying to flow?(gpm)
    4. If you're flowing and not moving, you can use the loop technique most use with 2.5" . Make a big loop in the nozzle end of the line and pass the nozzle under the loop toward the fire leaving about 2ft outside to the nozzle. Sit on or just behind where the hose crosses.

    I still think you need to question constantly flowing a 1.75" line. 10-15 minutes is a long time to be open flowing an offensive attack line.
    WOW, my sentiments exactly! I've been trying to get my crews to practice 2 1/2 loops, pin and hits, and three man evolutions. Ya gotta learn to use the big dawg if yer gonna knock it fast.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    312

    Default

    My 2 cents...

    What is your backup man doing? Being the nozzleman you should not be working that hard to hold the hose.

    Also is the time of 15 minutes during practice? I can understand that long in practice. But whether I have used a 1.75 or 2.5 I do not think I have ever had to do 15 continous minutes.

    As for how to make it easier... Listen to most of the things that have already been stated and also talk with your training officer. Do not be ashamed to say something is hard on you. If the training officer is good at his job he can fix it for you by showing you some other techniques.

  7. #7
    Worldwide Menace DFurtman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Wandering the World
    Posts
    541

    Default

    Try using or making a hose strap.. make a large loop of a piece of webbing, tie a girth hitch around the hose a several feet back from the nozzle, and pass the other end of the loop over your opposite (leading) shoulder.

    -Damien

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    213

    Default

    All good responses so far. A couple things I'd add....are you sure your pump operator is pumping at the appropriate pressure? If the same operator is typically flowing when you're on the line maybe it's his error or miscalculation. If it's an adjustable gallonage nozzle is it set at the right flow rate?

    Overall though, 10 to 15 minutes with the line open for an interior attack means something else is wrong, not the way you're holding the line. Either you're using the wrong size line, you're not really hitting the seat of the fire, or you shouldn't be in there. Some of my most well involved interior attacks still only had an open line for a minute or two at a time....you periodically will be shutting down (briefly) to advance, readjust, or even stop and listen to your surroundings. Overall I may have been attacking the fire for an accumulated 10-15 minutes, but never has it been open that entire length of time.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    32

    Default

    If you're not going offensive, why not make a kenein(sp?) loop?

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    17

    Default Gun fighter`s stance

    Pistol grip does not make anything easier.To give your self a little more control over the hoseline use a "gun-fighters stance" You were in the military so this should be familiar. Use a wide stance, feet should be a little wider than shoulder width apart, give a slight bend at the knees. Also you want to slightly lean into the nozzle,almost like you are leaning into the wind. Try to get the hoseline to rest on your thigh if possible.A good back-up man helps also but either way you cut it your gonna get tired I dont care how big you are.
    Last edited by bradroger07; 10-08-2009 at 11:48 AM.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    126

    Default

    I suspect that the "gun fighters" technique would not be advantageous in an offensive interior attack.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang281 View Post
    If you're not going offensive, why not make a kenein(sp?) loop?
    I believe it's Kenna, but I don't know who it was name after. Anyone know? I've also heard it referred to as a "Chicago Loop". It's definitely a great tool for when you're just hanging out lobbing water. One guy on a 2 1/2" line with very easy control!

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    813

    Cool Here's what I know.....

    The ways that I've been shown/trained to hold hose no matter what the Pump Pressure is are: Hose Strap, "Q" up the line (aka Exposure Loop; works even during Offensive Fire Attack. All you have to do is pull a little bit more line into the Structure and make a small loop and either sit or lay on it) and "Bend it like Becham" (take the hose infront of you; like how far out you want your cack to be, and shape it into an S, use your knee to help bend the hoseline this way the Nozzle Reaction is displaced along your hip and upper legs and not your arms).

    If this works for ya' then sit back and enjoy. If not, then try numerous ways while training or ask your Senior Firemen, Engineers and Captains.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mtngael View Post
    I believe it's Kenna, but I don't know who it was name after. Anyone know? I've also heard it referred to as a "Chicago Loop". It's definitely a great tool for when you're just hanging out lobbing water. One guy on a 2 1/2" line with very easy control!
    Still curious as to what this is.

    Two weeks ago we were defensive on an apartment complex fire and a ff from another department showed a friend of mine a different way to control a hose. He had the hose running toward him from his front and then looped the nozzle back toward the fire in a big vertical loop. Sort of a backward "C" away from you with the loop against your leg so your leg and hip took most of the nozzle reaction. Is this what a Kenna or Kenein loop is?

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    I am thinking the kenna or chicago loop is what i have heard called a street loop. you just form a circle with the hose pass the nozzle back under the hose and sit where the two cross each other. have like three feet in front of you and lift the hose up to flow.

    I prefer to just pin the hose to the ground with my knee about three ft behind the nozzle and then flow. Each to their own i guess. this makes you more moblie just shut down and move to a new spot or change to offensive.

    As for a 1 3/4 never had a problem, but i dont use the pistol grips. to qoute a old salty lt. "pistol grips promote bad habits".

    Also smoothbores have less reaction force then a standard fog nozzle. but that is another debate

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. am i too small
    By mrivers09 in forum Testing & Fitness
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 10-19-2008, 10:23 AM
  2. Hose and Hose Testing Machine?
    By sdff1520 in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-30-2005, 11:59 AM
  3. No Small Pox
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-19-2003, 09:08 AM
  4. small
    By jmylea in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-10-2003, 08:44 PM
  5. Hose Testing for 3" Hose
    By Adze in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-22-2000, 11:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts