1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    As a matter of fact I have been intimately involved in developing master plans for a large organization. You start with a vision, this is where we need to go. Then you set out the steps on how to get there. Once the steps are in place you then develop projects and systems to get you to the goal. Of course like anything the ore people involved and the more nay-sayers in the process the harder it is to make progress.
    I'll note you still have yet to provide specific and relevant solutions to the issues some of us are discussing.

    Furthermore, can you define progress? If progress is a noticably less effective system of service delievery where success can only be achieved by manipulation and worthless YoY comparisons with different methods used to achieve each set of numbers...then you can keep your progress.

    Nope, no where in NYS state law does it say a Union has to be involved that a Union is even necessary. My experience in dealing with unions has been that they object to change and progress and are afraid of change.
    There are laws re: terms and conditions of employment, jurisdiction...etc that aren't being properly addressed...hense why I understand there is at least one IP being filed that I know of...probably more.

    If we want to make overly broad statements here is mine:
    Well my experience with management is they are full of incompetant megalomaniacal fools who rather than work within the system with others to achieve meaninful progress in an open and legitimate manner, they attempt to subvert and work unilaterally as if they existed in a vacuum. And then when the outcome ends in less than desirable results they cut loose those who work under them and scapegoat others to hide from their own responsiblities they've shirked and duties they've been derilict in.

    Unions work with change all the time...my contract and terms and conditions have changed many times through out my career. You are clearly hopelessly blinded by willfull ignorance and have yet to offer and relevant suggestions other than overly broad naiveté thinly disguised as a contribution to this thread.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 10-23-2009 at 01:53 PM.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    As a matter of fact I have been intimately involved in developing master plans for a large organization. You start with a vision, this is where we need to go. Then you set out the steps on how to get there. Once the steps are in place you then develop projects and systems to get you to the goal. Of course like anything the ore people involved and the more nay-sayers in the process the harder it is to make progress.



    Nope, no where in NYS state law does it say a Union has to be involved that a Union is even necessary. My experience in dealing with unions has been that they object to change and progress and are afraid of change.

    He wasn't talking about getting a new refrigerator for the breakroom, or deciding which desk chairs will hold up to the atomic *** drops you office types can deliver.

    Why don't you cite something relavent to the topic? I guess Wikipedia didn't cover large metropolitan communication's yet.
    IAFF

  3. #253
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    Forget it FFRED, this guys is a hair bag. He and the other chuklehead are not worth the time. You can't fix stupid.......put him on ignore...and he just disappears.
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    I got sucked in for a moment, but then remembered a lesson I learned years ago:
    Don't argue with the mentally ill.

    He's a troll. Don't waste your breath brother.
    He has all the answers but fails to provide them.

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    I've discussed a system that just about every other metro fire department uses to receive fire and EMS calls.
    There are even metro fire departments that use such a system to dispatch privates to EMS calls running with the city FD as well.

    The fact is FDNY is a fire and EMS agency simply resists incorporating fire and EMS dispatch into one operation, which once again, just about every, if not every, metro department does.

    I'm sorry you feel that system will not work for NYC. It seems to work pretty well everywhere else.

    If that makes me a hairball, so be it.

    By the way, being from upstate NY, this is pretty typical NYC "we deserve it all because we're THE city" mentality.

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    Now that you live in Bizarrro Parrish, it is none of your concern...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I've discussed a system that just about every other metro fire department uses to receive fire and EMS calls.
    There are even metro fire departments that use such a system to dispatch privates to EMS calls running with the city FD as well.

    The fact is FDNY is a fire and EMS agency simply resists incorporating fire and EMS dispatch into one operation, which once again, just about every, if not every, metro department does.

    I'm sorry you feel that system will not work for NYC. It seems to work pretty well everywhere else.

    If that makes me a hairball, so be it.

    By the way, being from upstate NY, this is pretty typical NYC "we deserve it all because we're THE city" mentality.
    Maybe we need to define what a system that "works" is?

    Citizen calls 911, somebody answers, tells somebody else about it and eventually somebody shows up to deal with the situation. I guess a person could say that this is a "working" system since a 911 call resulted in a fire, EMS and/or PD unit(s) arrives on scene.

    I don't recall anybody saying that type of system will not "work" for NYC. I do recall FDNY FFs saying that the system IS NOT working for FDNY and is not an improvement on the old system. Never mind that, as mentioned, only the FD lost their "local" dispatchers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    By the way, being from upstate NY, this is pretty typical NYC "we deserve it all because we're THE city" mentality.
    The members of the FDNY have intimate knowledge on the subject matter, YOU do not. We work here.....YOU do not, I once worked in FDNY-EMS communications.. YOU NEVER have....what the hell would I know......Living in "Upstate NY" does not mean you qualify as a resident expert on how the FDNY operates...and more importantly WHY. All these cities you keep mentioning do not have the population, density or total responses that the FDNY, FDNY-EMS, or NYPD have. NYC is virtually 5 seperate cities....all rolled into one. The Financial District/Tirbeca areas in Manhattan are bigger than most other cities in the US....and thats only 2 neighborhoods.......There wasn't anything wrong with the system we had....aside that Bloomturd only sees in green.....and not blue.

    So tell your story walking...all the way back to booze bag Parish, LA...or where ever you are from.


    PS....its Hair Bag, not hair ball
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    I keep forgetting we are talking about the incompetent managers of NYC and the reason millions of dollars have t o flow there to keep it solvent. I guess if that city wasn't so screwed up it would be self sufficient.

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    ......There wasn't anything wrong with the system we had....aside that Bloomturd only sees in green.....and not blue.

    And there lies the problem.

    While every other department in the city is requested to cut back as revenues fall .... the FDNY department views themselves as "too important" to cut back as well.

    Sorry, but in today's environment every city department needs to accept cut backs as reality .... and accept the reality that they will often not be able to operate as they used to.

    Many departments are feeling it far worse than the FDNY.

    Even well-funded cities are feeling it. Bossier City, which has a very solid financial base, is in the process of laying off 38 firefighters and 22 cops. They will reduce the medic units from 3 to 2, and close at least 1 station out of 8. Closing 2 is a possibility if they don't cut the medic units.

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    So are you saying that we should just lay down and accept whatever ill conceived plan our city administrators come up with?

    So are you saying that we should just keep quiet and not do anything to inform the citizens we swore to protect that their lives and property may be in increased danger because of whatever cuts have been proposed?

  12. #262
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    The FDNY firefighters can do whatever they want to convince the voters that the system shouldn't be changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The FDNY firefighters can do whatever they want to convince the voters that the system shouldn't be changed.
    I was referring to your comments in post #260 and the comment above seems to contradict what you were saying there.

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    The bottom line is in the vast majority of US cities fire departments have been or will be cut.

    Period. That is not something that is going to change in the near future.

    Departments that continue to beleive that they should be immune from cuts are fools because they are going to happen.

    It's really that simple. We may not like it. It may increase their risk. It may affect response. But it has or will happen. Period.

    It's certainly the right of the departments to try to sway public opinion. But the raw truth is the public almost always cares more about the $$$$ than the fire department and will not oppose the cuts.

    My point was that in the FDNY there sounds like the budget will be cut. Revenues are down and the citizens will oppose additional taxes.

    So admin has decided to cut out a layer of dispatching that honestly, most urban departments do not use. Most urban departments do not have fire dispatchers and EMS dispatchers. They have fire/EMS dispatchers that are trained to do both jobs and they do the job quite well in most areas.

    This is especially relevant since FDNY runs both fire and EMS, and logic would dictate that like most if not all areas whose fire department handles fire and EMS, this is viwed as a combined function.

    So what is the FDNY willing to give up to retain seperate fire dispatchers? How many companies? How many fire marshals? How much special operations functions?

    The fact is the cuts are going to take place and there will be staffing reductions someplace. Where is the FDNY willing to accept those reductions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So are you saying that we should just lay down and accept whatever ill conceived plan our city administrators come up with?

    So are you saying that we should just keep quiet and not do anything to inform the citizens we swore to protect that their lives and property may be in increased danger because of whatever cuts have been proposed?
    When the CEO of the company sets a direction you follow. You will often find out they have information at their disposal that you do not.

    As for informing the citizens, do so with facts and figures. Running into the street saying something like "Mayor Bloomtard implemented the most F'ed up system and people will die becuase of it" will only get a call to the men in white. Presenting a well researched document with facts, figures, and references will have much more meaning and impact.

    I remember back when OSHA became an entity my dad had to go out and buy 50 hard hats for his employees. You should have heard the guys bitching about those hard hats. I remember that stuff when I heart people complaining. Sometimes it is nothing more than sour grapes, and if that is how you come off then you will get the attention as such and nothing will happen.

    There is this saying - The squeaky wheel gets the grease. There is a second part to that in sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced. Think about that for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The bottom line is in the vast majority of US cities fire departments have been or will be cut.

    Period. That is not something that is going to change in the near future.

    Departments that continue to beleive that they should be immune from cuts are fools because they are going to happen.

    It's really that simple. We may not like it. It may increase their risk. It may affect response. But it has or will happen. Period.

    It's certainly the right of the departments to try to sway public opinion. But the raw truth is the public almost always cares more about the $$$$ than the fire department and will not oppose the cuts.

    My point was that in the FDNY there sounds like the budget will be cut. Revenues are down and the citizens will oppose additional taxes.

    So admin has decided to cut out a layer of dispatching that honestly, most urban departments do not use. Most urban departments do not have fire dispatchers and EMS dispatchers. They have fire/EMS dispatchers that are trained to do both jobs and they do the job quite well in most areas.

    This is especially relevant since FDNY runs both fire and EMS, and logic would dictate that like most if not all areas whose fire department handles fire and EMS, this is viwed as a combined function.

    So what is the FDNY willing to give up to retain seperate fire dispatchers? How many companies? How many fire marshals? How much special operations functions?

    The fact is the cuts are going to take place and there will be staffing reductions someplace. Where is the FDNY willing to accept those reductions?
    It isn't just FDs my friend, it will be government services across the board. But hey, a federal government that gave us a failed IRS system, and a failed SS system, will soon be screwing up our Health Care system too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The bottom line is in the vast majority of US cities fire departments have been or will be cut.

    Period. That is not something that is going to change in the near future.
    Kind of irrelevant to the discussion since the "cut" in question actually occurred outside the fire department.

    Departments that continue to beleive that they should be immune from cuts are fools because they are going to happen.
    Regardless of whether or not the cuts will happen, we aren't "fools" to believe that public safety services and staffing shouldn't be cut, especially when other non-essential services continue to be funded.

    It's really that simple. We may not like it. It may increase their risk. It may affect response. But it has or will happen. Period.

    It's certainly the right of the departments to try to sway public opinion. But the raw truth is the public almost always cares more about the $$$$ than the fire department and will not oppose the cuts.
    Then stop complaining when they do that.

    My point was that in the FDNY there sounds like the budget will be cut. Revenues are down and the citizens will oppose additional taxes.

    So admin has decided to cut out a layer of dispatching that honestly, most urban departments do not use. Most urban departments do not have fire dispatchers and EMS dispatchers. They have fire/EMS dispatchers that are trained to do both jobs and they do the job quite well in most areas.

    This is especially relevant since FDNY runs both fire and EMS, and logic would dictate that like most if not all areas whose fire department handles fire and EMS, this is viwed as a combined function.
    Well, for the large city in my urban area, they have separate dispatch positions for fire and EMS. The dispatchers themselves may move back and forth to some extent, but they don't dispatch both at the same time. Regardless, the discussion isn't so much about separate dispatchers, but the elimination of separate fire call takers. We're also taking about the combining of the Fire and PD call taking process not the combination of Fire and EMS call taking.

    If the UCT thing is so great, then why aren't the UCTs handling ALL 911 calls?


    So what is the FDNY willing to give up to retain seperate fire dispatchers? How many companies? How many fire marshals? How much special operations functions?

    The fact is the cuts are going to take place and there will be staffing reductions someplace. Where is the FDNY willing to accept those reductions?
    Why do they have to be willing to accept the reductions? They could certainly choose to work with the city to determine what would be the least dangerous changes, but they don't have to willingly accept the reductions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It isn't just FDs my friend, it will be government services across the board. But hey, a federal government that gave us a failed IRS system, and a failed SS system, will soon be screwing up our Health Care system too.
    A "failed" system and a system run in a "less than optimal" fashion are not the same thing.

    You keep citing system that have their problems, but they aren't "failed".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    A "failed" system and a system run in a "less than optimal" fashion are not the same thing.

    You keep citing system that have their problems, but they aren't "failed".
    Let me see, the liberals claim that the rich don't pay their fair share, hence the IRS failed. The conservatives claim they pay too much, again a failed system. An just try to talk to someone there if you have an issue. 15 minute wait times are good, usually it is 30.

    No move on to SS. Illegal foreign scumbags come in and get benefits without putting in the quarters. The feds keep stealing the funds. Not everyone contributes to it, and it is going broke. ANOTHER F****** Failure. SS is supposed to give us confidence that it will be there for us when we retire, I for one don't believe it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Let me see, the liberals claim that the rich don't pay their fair share, hence the IRS failed. The conservatives claim they pay too much, again a failed system. An just try to talk to someone there if you have an issue. 15 minute wait times are good, usually it is 30.
    Well this proved nothing. I think you're one of the ones on here that keep saying that everybody thinks they pay too much taxes. So, of course nobody's going to be happy with the tax rates. As for a 15-30 minute wait to speak with somebody, well I've done that on more than one occasion for a private company, an ER visit, a table at a restaurant, .....

    No move on to SS. Illegal foreign scumbags come in and get benefits without putting in the quarters. The feds keep stealing the funds. Not everyone contributes to it, and it is going broke. ANOTHER F****** Failure. SS is supposed to give us confidence that it will be there for us when we retire, I for one don't believe it.
    I agree that the illegals shouldn't be receiving SS benefits. Care to cite some examples of this fund theft and what they did with it? The vast majority with an above board job do pay into it. I know at least some firefighters don't pay in (via their FF job), but we also don't get SS when we retire.

    I don't disagree that many of these government programs are broken. However, being "broken" doesn't necessarily mean "failed". So, how about providing something of substance rather than just your personal opinions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Then you disagree that EMS needs their own call takers as currently planned then? (neither they nor the PD lost call takers)
    In my mind, I believe a call taker should be trained to handle the call coming in and process it, whether be the detailed information that FDNY needs, the "generalization" it appears NYPD wants, and the middle ground (?) that EMS wants.


    Thank you for the information/details of the system. I still believe it's possible to have one cohesive system, but I also believe the project is too large and complicated (and expensive) to ever be done.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Wink

    FDNY you handle it as you see fit. I ain't getting involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txchf1 View Post
    FDNY you handle it as you see fit. I ain't getting involved.
    Well that was insightful!!!

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    Smile Insightful??

    Wasn't meant to be. I just don't see how this got to 14 pages when it doesn't concern anyone except the FDNY guys. Let them handle it and everybody elso let it go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by txchf1 View Post
    Wasn't meant to be. I just don't see how this got to 14 pages when it doesn't concern anyone except the FDNY guys. Let them handle it and everybody elso let it go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I think it got to 14 pages because few people understand how dramatically different New York City is from the rest of the country.

    Sure, it's the same in that people call 911 and fire trucks show up to fix the problem... But the scale is so much different. 8.3 million residents to protect. Almost 15,000 uniformed members. 200+ firehouses. The most dense population in the country. The tallest buildings. The most diverse hazards.

    Yes, the theories everyone has posted could work in NYC, but it's hard for anyone to go back to square one -- especially the largest city in the country. It's even harder when you consider the sheer number of people and dollars involved in the smallest change. That's the part that people are having trouble understanding.

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