1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I see, FDNY does it this way so there is no way to improve the process.
    Not saying that at all. I am saying you first need to know and understand the process.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Angry ScareCrow57, you . . . .YOU, you!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Or BAM!!!! Call comes in one block form where you are. This is a non-issue. Where you are at any given time puts you closer to soem people and farther from others. Try again skippy
    NO IT IS NOT A NON-ISSUE! If you are far away from a legitimate call because you were sent somewhere in error, IT IS A PROBLEM!

    You truly don't get the point do you, there is a problem with the way the dispatch system is working and the muckity mucks are bragging about a parlor trick they pulled to falsely improve response numbers.

    I learn alot from reading this and other boards about firefighting and one of the things I have learned is that most people and or politicians truly don't understand how their decisions effect how we do our jobs; you sir are one of the reasons why you just don't want to see anything but your own narrow viewpoint. I honestly wonder about how much you care about and for your fellow firefighters.
    Mark Zanghetti
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    Ah NO. You need to understand RUDEMENTARY Firefighting for that process to begin.Don't see that happening with our resident Dodo(expert). If the guys working in the system are saying it isn't working,I think I'll believe them instead of our quality control expert.I've got some issues in OUR dispatch but they're Waaay easier to fix than this. Short companies,brownouts,gear shortages/issues........What's next? Time for the uprising,I think. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Ah NO. You need to understand RUDEMENTARY Firefighting for that process to begin.Don't see that happening with our resident Dodo(expert). If the guys working in the system are saying it isn't working,I think I'll believe them instead of our quality control expert.I've got some issues in OUR dispatch but they're Waaay easier to fix than this. Short companies,brownouts,gear shortages/issues........What's next? Time for the uprising,I think. T.C.
    I can't really understand the hostility here. The problem seems to be the dispatch system in NYC. Seems to me that the problems need to be addressed between FDNY and City of New York management. I have no idea why people want to rant at me or others in regard to this. Our system worked, is working, and I'm sure will work in the future. We don't have big issues between FD, LE, Medics and the city. I'm sorry if you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not saying that at all. I am saying you first need to know and understand the process.
    It was explained here

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    There are a multitude of issues within this topic...but I will briefly explain the method which they used to doctor and fraudulently claim these specific efficiency gains.

    Formerly this is how a fire company would arrive at your front door:

    -You either call 911, the boro Central office, or pull a street alarm box(ERS only as BARS boxes aren't relevant to this issue).

    -If you called 911 as most do, and tell the Police Dispatcher you need to report a fire, you were immediately transferred (if the PD followed protocol) to the Boro Fire call taker and this is when the CLOCK STARTED as far as response time.

    The time it took for them to gather your information, type of incident, address, cross streets...etc. was all on the clock.

    They would process the alarm, to the decision dispatcher and BANG...a ticket would begin printing in firehouses, where we then would turnout and respond and when the first arriving company (Engine, Ladder, Battalion) arrives and hits or transmits at 10-84...the CLOCK STOPPED!

    This is how it now works under the new UCT program crammed down our throats against the advice of anyone with any knowledge of FD vs. PD operations and dispatching structures.:

    You call 911 and a PD dispatcher with little to no relevant FD training (and most are barely literate in the English language as the garbage they type in the comments section as to specifics on the Box is disturbing and would be incredibly humorous if peoples lives weren't hanging in the balance) takes the information, many times due to their lack of training and knowledge on what FDNY needs vs. what cops need, leads to long wait times...meanwhile I'm still in quarters and know nothing of what is going on.

    So after usual lengthy delays they send what info they have to the Decision dispatcher for the FD...many times it is incorrect or incomplete...or illegible.

    So a ticket is sent to firehouses based on this info....NOW THE CLOCK STARTS and we turnout with tickets that have no information, or wrong information.)

    So any first year stats student could tell you any comparison to past years times that were gathered under completely different methods and metrics is completely irrelevant and without merit.

    Now are the FDNY filled with incompetent managers who need to go back and re-take their 1st year public administration classes and pass them with better than C average...or are they willfully distorting the facts and lying to the public?

    FTM-PTB

    PS- This doesn't even address the multitudes of boxes sent out that have almost got men killed and led to unreasonable delays in responses, or how the Department picks arbitrarily which days of the year they will use to average response times or which runs they throw out when it suits them.

    The only two things on the level in this world are Professional Wrestling and this job...everything else is Bull ----
    If you eliminate the transfer then you improve response times.

    Sounds like there is a problem with the 911 system. I would think there would be a dispatch center in each of the 5 boroughs. So when you dial 911 you go directly to the appropriate dispatch center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzanghetti View Post
    NO IT IS NOT A NON-ISSUE! If you are far away from a legitimate call because you were sent somewhere in error, IT IS A PROBLEM!

    You truly don't get the point do you, there is a problem with the way the dispatch system is working and the muckity mucks are bragging about a parlor trick they pulled to falsely improve response numbers.

    I learn alot from reading this and other boards about firefighting and one of the things I have learned is that most people and or politicians truly don't understand how their decisions effect how we do our jobs; you sir are one of the reasons why you just don't want to see anything but your own narrow viewpoint. I honestly wonder about how much you care about and for your fellow firefighters.
    OK, I'll play your silly game too. You call in to report a car fire. Transfer to the FD dispatch. Oh and by the way, it looks like the car was in an accident and we need PD too. You see you can throw out silly little what ifs all day long. What you really need are facts. What percentage of calls end up sending apparatus to the wrong address?

    It isn't a parlor trick at all. It's called streamlining the process, aka process improvement.

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    Bryan,Post NOT directed at you.Directed at the Crow,or his real format the Dodo.If your system works,great! I'm betting(and winning)that in it's PRESENT(yours)form it WOULD NOT be effective in NYC. Now most of US know this,but a few still think there is a universal solution that fits ALL depts.Which,IF you have a brain,know isn't the case. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    OK, I'll play your silly game too. You call in to report a car fire. Transfer to the FD dispatch. Oh and by the way, it looks like the car was in an accident and we need PD too. You see you can throw out silly little what ifs all day long. What you really need are facts. What percentage of calls end up sending apparatus to the wrong address?

    It isn't a parlor trick at all. It's called streamlining the process, aka process improvement.
    Can't speak for NYC 911 but our dispatchers type in FVEH for vehicle fire through the magic of computers it sends the information to the police dispatcher (not the call taker but the supervisor's station.) Wow magic.

    The call transfer may not decrease response times but it may help send the right resources for the incident being reported.

    Take that above vehicle fire. A fire dispatcher is going to ask for different information than a normal call taker. Could be the difference between a passenger vehicle fire (1 engine), large vehicle fire (2 engines, 1 ladder), vehicle near structure (2 engines, 1 ladder, 1 dm, 1 ambo, 1 rescue), or my favorite vehicle on fire inside the structure (3 engines, 2 ladders, 1 squad, 1 rescue, 1 ambo, 1 major). Once again garbage in, garbage out.

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    Here's the FACT.Companies are being dispatched to the WRONG address sometimes halfway across the City.Ever drive in NYC? And YOU still don't see a PROBLEM here? Gawd are you DUMB! T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Bryan,Post NOT directed at you.Directed at the Crow,or his real format the Dodo.If your system works,great! I'm betting(and winning)that in it's PRESENT(yours)form it WOULD NOT be effective in NYC. Now most of US know this,but a few still think there is a universal solution that fits ALL depts.Which,IF you have a brain,know isn't the case. T.C.
    Rescue: Reference was not directed at you but the person who claimed that our centralised comms centre was pretty screwed up and a terrorist attack would knock out city wide comms. He's without doubt right, but we simply don't worry too much about a terror attack, or for that matter an Alien invasion. We try to handle the things we are capable of controlling. Our system wouldn't work city wide in New York, but things like using properly trained, paid and recognised emergency dispatchers probably would, no matter how many centers they dispatch out of. Just of interest, are the FD dispatchers members of FDNY or civillian dispatchers attached?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    OK, I'll play your silly game too. You call in to report a car fire. Transfer to the FD dispatch. Oh and by the way, it looks like the car was in an accident and we need PD too. You see you can throw out silly little what ifs all day long. What you really need are facts. What percentage of calls end up sending apparatus to the wrong address?

    It isn't a parlor trick at all. It's called streamlining the process, aka process improvement.
    It may surpise you to know that in most large cities and counties that have large fire and police departments that there is a large answering agency that handles all 9-1-1 calls. Once they have determined the emergency and entered the address and code for Fire, Police, EMS, dog catcher, public works, gas and or electric departments, then that call is handed off to the appropriate dispatcher(s). Once that is done that operator reviews the address and assignment and by a key strole on their computer keyboard, tones and the assignments are transmitted. K

    It is the way the system works in NYC. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Crow in your burg of east arm pit, things may be different. Someone runs outside and rings the large bell atop to the hardware store and the firemen come running. K

    While you are trying to slove all the problems in the FDNY, take a trip down to Philly and give him your expertise and then a little further to Baltimore, as they can always use the help from an expert.
    K
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Here's the FACT.Companies are being dispatched to the WRONG address sometimes halfway across the City.Ever drive in NYC? And YOU still don't see a PROBLEM here? Gawd are you DUMB! T.C.
    350 miles from NYC, how do you know this fact? Yes, I have driven in NYC. With 221 fire stations in 470 Square miles there is one near ever resident of the city. That is roughly 2 square miles per fire house, yes it is an average. Sounds to me like you are never more than a couple of miles from a fire house at any given time. So you see, they are never dispatched halfway across the city, " Gawd are you DUMB!?".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    350 miles from NYC, how do you know this fact? Yes, I have driven in NYC. With 221 fire stations in 470 Square miles there is one near ever resident of the city. That is roughly 2 square miles per fire house, yes it is an average. Sounds to me like you are never more than a couple of miles from a fire house at any given time. So you see, they are never dispatched halfway across the city, " Gawd are you DUMB!?".

    Did you even read this f*cking thread? Its happened already nitwit.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    It may surpise you to know that in most large cities and counties that have large fire and police departments that there is a large answering agency that handles all 9-1-1 calls. Once they have determined the emergency and entered the address and code for Fire, Police, EMS, dog catcher, public works, gas and or electric departments, then that call is handed off to the appropriate dispatcher(s). Once that is done that operator reviews the address and assignment and by a key strole on their computer keyboard, tones and the assignments are transmitted. K

    It is the way the system works in NYC. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Crow in your burg of east arm pit, things may be different. Someone runs outside and rings the large bell atop to the hardware store and the firemen come running. K

    While you are trying to slove all the problems in the FDNY, take a trip down to Philly and give him your expertise and then a little further to Baltimore, as they can always use the help from an expert.
    K
    I'm not trying to solve (or is it slove) any problems. The managers in the FDNY are doing that. I kind of thought FDNY would be proud of an increased response time.

    However, I will say that response times as they are measured are not good indicators. The real response time is how long it takes from the time I dial 911 until the first truck arrives. And realistically, the end time should be when the water starts flowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Did you even read this f*cking thread? Its happened already nitwit.
    Yes, did you read? I am sure it does happen. I'm sure it happened before. The question is has the number of times it happens increased, decreased or stayed the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    350 miles from NYC, how do you know this fact? Yes, I have driven in NYC. With 221 fire stations in 470 Square miles there is one near ever resident of the city. That is roughly 2 square miles per fire house, yes it is an average. Sounds to me like you are never more than a couple of miles from a fire house at any given time. So you see, they are never dispatched halfway across the city, " Gawd are you DUMB!?".
    I'm sure what he meant was for example what happened to my company a month ago...we were sent to an address. We arrive to find no-such address exists. It took them about 4 min to discover the actual incident was in BROOKLYN...roughly half way accross the city.

    Or last week when we responded to a box that was really uptown from us....or when we were sent 3-2 Chief for a "CO" run. (actuall words from PD dispatcher)

    If you can't understand why comparing times that include call taking, to times that don't include the call taking portion amounts to parlor tricks....then you aren't worth the time and effort in continuing this discussion.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-23-2009 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If you are responding you should be smart enough to ask for a clarification of where you are going. We have two intersection in our town where the two roads intersect in two different places. We also have a situation where someone put in a private road that has the same name as a town road. We also have a bay with campsites on both sides of the bay. Both with the same name.

    But if your dispatch is getting the wrong address then that is a training issue for dispatch.
    #1, we average around 1250 calls a day. Having to even ask for corrected info on just 10% of those runs would clog the radio, not to mention that incorrect addresses can have us heading in the wrong direction (or as has happened, the correct companies not even being turned out).
    #2, we know its a training issue for dispatch. the system wasnt broken. Can you actually not read?


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Exactly. When you get dispatched the information comes in from a dispatch center. Doesn't really matter where that dispatch center is as long as you get good information. If I understand it correctly, used to be the call came into a central dispatch and was then sent to FD Dispatch. The time wasted getting the basic information and then having to repeat that information is where the savings come from. I suspect the Unions real issue is they will loose positions.
    LOL its a different union nitwit. Our concern has little to do with another union losing positions (although its BS and we dont like it) but with the safety of our members and the public we are supposed to be protecting. Most of the FD dispatchers in NY do a wonderful job and are an integral part of having operations run smoothly. This isnt some podunk town, listen to some of our audio and maybe youll understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    My point is you train your dispatchers to get the information and get it right
    NO SH*T. The problem is the city isnt interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Again, I asked for details. How often does it really happen?
    LOL you think the city would release numbers that show their plan sucks? Very smart of you. How idealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It was explained here
    If you eliminate the transfer then you improve response times.

    Sounds like there is a problem with the 911 system. I would think there would be a dispatch center in each of the 5 boroughs. So when you dial 911 you go directly to the appropriate dispatch center.
    It didnt improve response times. Did you even read what he wrote?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I'm not trying to solve (or is it slove) any problems. The managers in the FDNY are doing that. I kind of thought FDNY would be proud of an increased response time.

    However, I will say that response times as they are measured are not good indicators. The real response time is how long it takes from the time I dial 911 until the first truck arrives. And realistically, the end time should be when the water starts flowing.
    Thats we said already dimmy. The time from the 911 call to our 10-84 isnt decreasing, they just simply changed the goalposts. Try some critical thinking, and drop the I hate everything FDNY crap that failed for others as well.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I'm sure what he meant was for example what happened to my company a month ago...we were sent to an address. We arrive to find no-such address exists. It took them about 4 min to discover the actual incident was in BROOKLYN...roughly half way accross the city.

    Or last week when we responded to a box that was really uptown from us....or when we were sent 3-2 Chief for a "CO" run. (actuall words from PD dispatcher)

    If you can't understand why comparing times that include call taking, to times that don't include the call taking portion amounts to parlor tricks....then you aren't worth the time and effort in continuing this discussion.
    FTM-PTB
    And as i have stated, if the method is consistent then there should be no issue. I also believe that the response time is measured from the time the person dials 911 until water is flowing on the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL you think the city would release numbers that show their plan sucks? Very smart of you. How idealistic.
    Any good manager would look at the numbers and determine if it was an improvement or not. This is what happens in industry.

    Thats we said already dimmy. The time from the 911 call to our 10-84 isnt decreasing, they just simply changed the goalposts. Try some critical thinking, and drop the I hate everything FDNY crap that failed for others as well.
    I never said I hate everything FDNY. In fact, I thought it was great that the response times dropped. However, it seems they moved the goal posts so there data is in fact flawed.

    As Fred pointed out they need some training in the dispatch center.

    Then again, NYC is like no other place on earth........

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    I'm still trying to get a clear picture of the past and present situation regarding dispatch.
    1. In the past, the 911 call went to FD dispatch. Correct? How large an area did a single dispatch cover?
    1. What size area does the present NYC dispatch cover? A borough? A certain size district?
    1. If I read the info from FDNY members correctly, the dispatch originates in the PD system? Don't these problems end up on police dispatches as well? They cannot be too happy with system either and with good reason.
    1. Would it be possible for both FD and PD unions/members to get together to fight this?

    Anyway you cut it, this situation will lead to a major incident if it hasn't happened already. Doesn't NFPA or insurance associations have a pretty strict guidelines in regards to how response times are calculated. I'm sure there is a date and time stamp as soon as the 911 op answers the call. I've always understood that response times were started then. This situation will never affect me or mine, but its pretty worrisome for any FD in areas where Station closures, layoffs, brownouts are an issue. In a lot of cases they may be unavoidable, but when municipal management takes to changing stats to justify their actions, somebody, FF, LE or civillians may pay with their life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    And as i have stated, if the method is consistent then there should be no issue.
    It isn't consistant. Thats the point you fail to understand.


    I also believe that the response time is measured from the time the person dials 911 until water is flowing on the fire.
    We have a bill stalled in the city council to measure this very issue. But the fact is that IS NOT how response times are measured here.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I'm still trying to get a clear picture of the past and present situation regarding dispatch.
    1. In the past, the 911 call went to FD dispatch. Correct? How large an area did a single dispatch cover?
    Each Borough had its' own central office, located in a city park so it was remote from any outside threats of fire or collapse from other nearby structures.

    And if you had an FD emergency you were transfered to the FD call takers who would obtain the information WE need to do OUR jobs.

    1. What size area does the present NYC dispatch cover? A borough? A certain size district?
    They have combined a few of them(work in progress), moving them...but each boro still has its own staff as I'm aware. There are many many problems with the move, (call takers are remote from radio in- radio out and DD positions...etc.) They are proposed to be within 11 Metro Tech along with a location as not yet built in the Bronx, however they are just tenants in these buildings and apparently we haven't learned any lessons from 9-11 and the OEM command center in 7 WTC.

    Each boro on its own is the equivilant of a large US city, seperate they would be the equivilant of Kings 3rd Largest, Queens 4th, New York 6th, Bronx 9th, and 38th Richmond. (by population) Also due to the unique geography and multiple addressing systems it is wise to have a de-centralized Central office to handle each respective borough.

    1. If I read the info from FDNY members correctly, the dispatch originates in the PD system? Don't these problems end up on police dispatches as well? They cannot be too happy with system either and with good reason.
    The cops haven't been happy with their dispatchers for years...and it is because it is filled with illiterates and imbiciles who are just a step above welfare cases.

    The other difference is as I've tried to explain, Police dispatch is different from Fire...both are different than the needs of EMS dispatch. They are geared towards getting information for Police needs and concerns. (which is why to them an industrial spill of mercury is the same as a carbon monoxide detector...it is a "HAZ-MAT") And that is why we are sending full box assignments to this nonsense (should be a 1 and 1)

    1. Would it be possible for both FD and PD unions/members to get together to fight this?
    PD doesn't care as it isn't a change for them and our efforts are an uphill battle.

    Anyway you cut it, this situation will lead to a major incident if it hasn't happened already. Doesn't NFPA or insurance associations have a pretty strict guidelines in regards to how response times are calculated. I'm sure there is a date and time stamp as soon as the 911 op answers the call. I've always understood that response times were started then. This situation will never affect me or mine, but its pretty worrisome for any FD in areas where Station closures, layoffs, brownouts are an issue. In a lot of cases they may be unavoidable, but when municipal management takes to changing stats to justify their actions, somebody, FF, LE or civillians may pay with their life.
    Even if the NFPA has some standard...the city most certainly wouldn't care. We've even been sent to a box and not one person in the building knew why we were there...only to find out that the call to PD was logged THE PREVIOUS DAY! This is because it is permissible in PD to stack calls...which is why we are getting tickets for auto accidents and showing up to see the wreckers pulling the damaged autos away! That is if we get the call at all!

    They will do everything to cover up and make excuses for what they will term are isolated issues with a new system that has "improved" delievery of services. But in reality it hasn't improved and they needed to muddy the waters so as to blurr their managerial failings.

    You can fool the spectators but you can't fool the players.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-24-2009 at 06:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    It isn't consistant. Thats the point you fail to understand.
    Actually, I did note, but perhaps not clearly that the method had changed. Logically it makes sense if you can eliminate a step you will improve response times. Sounds like implementation issues

    We have a bill stalled in the city council to measure this very issue. But the fact is that IS NOT how response times are measured here.

    FTM-PTB
    God a love government and they way it operates. Government has to be the most inefficient, slow to respond, system in the world. How responses times are measured should be up to the chief, it is an executive management decision. I think people in politics spend too much time trying to cover their butts that they become ineffective as leaders. In private industry managers make decisions all the time and the company will back those decisions. Government is just the opposite.

    I was of the impression that there were several dispatch centers covering several areas. Even in our little burg with 50,000 residents there are often 3 dispatchers on duty. So a city the size of NY would have to have at least 200 on duty at any given time. Our dispatchers do a very good job, but then again most of them have some field experience as well.

    Sad that probably the most critical link in the process is run by "...illiterates and imbeciles who are just a step above welfare cases." The whole process is only as strong as the weakest link.

    I look at stuff like this and wonder why these clueless jackazzes want this same government running health care.

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    Scardeycrow,GAWD ARE YOU DUMB! Even at 350 miles,I'm closer to my brothers(and sisters)in FDNY than YOU will EVER be.Actually,I'm only 5hrs away.As I stated earlier,your podunk methods won't work there.LISTEN to the brothers,they aren't making this schit up and YES,DUMBASS,there have been MANY times when a company has been dislocated far enough to have a M_A_J_O_R( VERY LARGE)impact on the incident.Research before you open your pie hole,you might even learn something.One more time: Gawd are you dumb! T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-24-2009 at 08:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, I did note, but perhaps not clearly that the method had changed. Logically it makes sense if you can eliminate a step you will improve response times. Sounds like implementation issues
    Do you realize that there appears to be two separate, yet linked issues in play? One does sound like an implementation problem - dispatcher/call takers not getting/providing the needed information for the FD purposes and getting the right response to the right location consistently.

    The other issue is the that the the city is trying to claim improved response times by comparing different methods for calculating them. If it's logical to think that eliminating a step in the dispatch process would improve response times, then it would certainly be just as logical to see that response times would improve if you started the clock later and kept the same end point.

    Apparently you're having trouble following this second issue. You simply can't compare response data gathered in two different methods using different start and end points and claim "improved" response times or "slower" response times for that matter.


    God a love government and they way it operates. Government has to be the most inefficient, slow to respond, system in the world. How responses times are measured should be up to the chief, it is an executive management decision. I think people in politics spend too much time trying to cover their butts that they become ineffective as leaders. In private industry managers make decisions all the time and the company will back those decisions. Government is just the opposite.
    Private industry isn't always that great at making the right decisions or operating efficiently either.

    I look at stuff like this and wonder why these clueless jackazzes want this same government running health care.
    Like private industry is doing a great job now.

    Well, I guess they must be since (in my area at least), my healthcare insurance provider is posting significant profits each year yet still significantly increases our premiums each year.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 09-24-2009 at 10:18 AM.

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