Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 21 123411 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 406
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default Union Disputes FDNY Response Times

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=65593

    I know the bigger the city the bigger the political motivation for issues, but the video clip from the above link makes the union and theirfore the entire department look like a bunch of goofballs.
    Time of alarm till first unit on scene is a run's response time.
    I'm a fan of the FDNY, some of my best teachers are and were on the job, based on that news clip he only hurt a great department's reputation.


  2. #2
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,549

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=65593

    I know the bigger the city the bigger the political motivation for issues, but the video clip from the above link makes the union and theirfore the entire department look like a bunch of goofballs.
    Time of alarm till first unit on scene is a run's response time.
    I'm a fan of the FDNY, some of my best teachers are and were on the job, based on that news clip he only hurt a great department's reputation.
    lol ok.....
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  3. #3
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,446

    Default

    I don't know if he hurt the reputation of the FDNY, but he could have made things more clear. This is also of coarse a snippet of a more detailed press release.

    His point is that just because the first fire department vehicle marks on the scene at 4 minutes, that doesn't mean that it will not take longer for other companies to arrive and perhaps even longer to reach the fire or victims depending on it's location.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    I'm sure, but I really wish he would of said something like; the first rig might arrive in 4 minutes but the rest of the companies might take 7, 10, 15 minutes to arrive, whatever. Or explain that in that 20 story highrise the single engine can't handle it alone but the back up (because of cutbacks) will delay firefighting efforts X amount.
    I'm not going to pretend to know all the sorted details, just emphasizes the importance of a good public speaker getting in front of the press.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,111

    Default

    Response times can be skewed to your viewpoint.

    Not a lot of weight in this report.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    The city has been using the same measure for response times. Hence they are not skewed. They changed their dispatch procedures which improved response times. The firefighters should be proud of the improved service.

    Good Job FDNY!!!

  7. #7
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,549

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The city has been using the same measure for response times. Hence they are not skewed. They changed their dispatch procedures which improved response times. The firefighters should be proud of the improved service.

    Good Job FDNY!!!
    Once again you prove just how dense you are.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  8. #8
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    Hmmm....is "on location" when they arrive at the address?

    or when they climb the 20 floors to the actual apartment?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    There are a multitude of issues within this topic...but I will briefly explain the method which they used to doctor and fraudulently claim these specific efficiency gains.

    Formerly this is how a fire company would arrive at your front door:

    -You either call 911, the boro Central office, or pull a street alarm box(ERS only as BARS boxes aren't relevant to this issue).

    -If you called 911 as most do, and tell the Police Dispatcher you need to report a fire, you were immediately transferred (if the PD followed protocol) to the Boro Fire call taker and this is when the CLOCK STARTED as far as response time.

    The time it took for them to gather your information, type of incident, address, cross streets...etc. was all on the clock.

    They would process the alarm, to the decision dispatcher and BANG...a ticket would begin printing in firehouses, where we then would turnout and respond and when the first arriving company (Engine, Ladder, Battalion) arrives and hits or transmits at 10-84...the CLOCK STOPPED!

    This is how it now works under the new UCT program crammed down our throats against the advice of anyone with any knowledge of FD vs. PD operations and dispatching structures.:

    You call 911 and a PD dispatcher with little to no relevant FD training (and most are barely literate in the English language as the garbage they type in the comments section as to specifics on the Box is disturbing and would be incredibly humorous if peoples lives weren't hanging in the balance) takes the information, many times due to their lack of training and knowledge on what FDNY needs vs. what cops need, leads to long wait times...meanwhile I'm still in quarters and know nothing of what is going on.

    So after usual lengthy delays they send what info they have to the Decision dispatcher for the FD...many times it is incorrect or incomplete...or illegible.

    So a ticket is sent to firehouses based on this info....NOW THE CLOCK STARTS and we turnout with tickets that have no information, or wrong information.)

    So any first year stats student could tell you any comparison to past years times that were gathered under completely different methods and metrics is completely irrelevant and without merit.

    Now are the FDNY filled with incompetent managers who need to go back and re-take their 1st year public administration classes and pass them with better than C average...or are they willfully distorting the facts and lying to the public?

    FTM-PTB

    PS- This doesn't even address the multitudes of boxes sent out that have almost got men killed and led to unreasonable delays in responses, or how the Department picks arbitrarily which days of the year they will use to average response times or which runs they throw out when it suits them.

    The only two things on the level in this world are Professional Wrestling and this job...everything else is Bull ----
    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-20-2009 at 12:08 AM.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,111

    Default

    Thanks for the background info FFRED....

    Sounds like the PD dispatchers need training in taking more than just PD calls and be more of a true public safety answering point (PSAP) dispatcher. If they did that, essentially take the training the current FD dispatchers have now, it wouldn't be a bad set up. Why did they make the change anyway? Was the system broke?
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    There are a multitude of issues within this topic...but I will briefly explain the method which they used to doctor and fraudulently claim these specific efficiency gains.

    Formerly this is how a fire company would arrive at your front door:

    -You either call 911, the boro Central office, or pull a street alarm box(ERS only as BARS boxes aren't relevant to this issue).

    -If you called 911 as most do, and tell the Police Dispatcher you need to report a fire, you were immediately transferred (if the PD followed protocol) to the Boro Fire call taker and this is when the CLOCK STARTED as far as response time.

    The time it took for them to gather your information, type of incident, address, cross streets...etc. was all on the clock.

    They would process the alarm, to the decision dispatcher and BANG...a ticket would begin printing in firehouses, where we then would turnout and respond and when the first arriving company (Engine, Ladder, Battalion) arrives and hits or transmits at 10-84...the CLOCK STOPPED!

    This is how it now works under the new UCT program crammed down our throats against the advice of anyone with any knowledge of FD vs. PD operations and dispatching structures.:

    You call 911 and a PD dispatcher with little to no relevant FD training (and most are barely literate in the English language as the garbage they type in the comments section as to specifics on the Box is disturbing and would be incredibly humorous if peoples lives weren't hanging in the balance) takes the information, many times due to their lack of training and knowledge on what FDNY needs vs. what cops need, leads to long wait times...meanwhile I'm still in quarters and know nothing of what is going on.

    So after usual lengthy delays they send what info they have to the Decision dispatcher for the FD...many times it is incorrect or incomplete...or illegible.

    So a ticket is sent to firehouses based on this info....NOW THE CLOCK STARTS and we turnout with tickets that have no information, or wrong information.)

    So any first year stats student could tell you any comparison to past years times that were gathered under completely different methods and metrics is completely irrelevant and without merit.

    Now are the FDNY filled with incompetent managers who need to go back and re-take their 1st year public administration classes and pass them with better than C average...or are they willfully distorting the facts and lying to the public?

    FTM-PTB

    PS- This doesn't even address the multitudes of boxes sent out that have almost got men killed and led to unreasonable delays in responses, or how the Department picks arbitrarily which days of the year they will use to average response times or which runs they throw out when it suits them.

    The only two things on the level in this world are Professional Wrestling and this job...everything else is Bull ----
    Thats a recipe for a bloody disaster, no question. Is this due to political correctness FFFRED? Here, dispatch cover PD, Fire and Ambulance. From what I remember, they have a checklist of questions to ask, thats the info that goes on the report sent to fire station. Things like address, possible occupancy, injuries if known, are asked twice. I believe the clock starts when the call comes in to 9-11 dispatch. Last time I heard, response time was in the mid 4 minutes.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    There are a multitude of issues within this topic...but I will briefly explain the method which they used to doctor and fraudulently claim these specific efficiency gains.

    Formerly this is how a fire company would arrive at your front door:

    -You either call 911, the boro Central office, or pull a street alarm box(ERS only as BARS boxes aren't relevant to this issue).

    -If you called 911 as most do, and tell the Police Dispatcher you need to report a fire, you were immediately transferred (if the PD followed protocol) to the Boro Fire call taker and this is when the CLOCK STARTED as far as response time.

    The time it took for them to gather your information, type of incident, address, cross streets...etc. was all on the clock.

    They would process the alarm, to the decision dispatcher and BANG...a ticket would begin printing in firehouses, where we then would turnout and respond and when the first arriving company (Engine, Ladder, Battalion) arrives and hits or transmits at 10-84...the CLOCK STOPPED!

    This is how it now works under the new UCT program crammed down our throats against the advice of anyone with any knowledge of FD vs. PD operations and dispatching structures.:

    You call 911 and a PD dispatcher with little to no relevant FD training (and most are barely literate in the English language as the garbage they type in the comments section as to specifics on the Box is disturbing and would be incredibly humorous if peoples lives weren't hanging in the balance) takes the information, many times due to their lack of training and knowledge on what FDNY needs vs. what cops need, leads to long wait times...meanwhile I'm still in quarters and know nothing of what is going on.

    So after usual lengthy delays they send what info they have to the Decision dispatcher for the FD...many times it is incorrect or incomplete...or illegible.

    So a ticket is sent to firehouses based on this info....NOW THE CLOCK STARTS and we turnout with tickets that have no information, or wrong information.)

    So any first year stats student could tell you any comparison to past years times that were gathered under completely different methods and metrics is completely irrelevant and without merit.

    Now are the FDNY filled with incompetent managers who need to go back and re-take their 1st year public administration classes and pass them with better than C average...or are they willfully distorting the facts and lying to the public?

    FTM-PTB

    PS- This doesn't even address the multitudes of boxes sent out that have almost got men killed and led to unreasonable delays in responses, or how the Department picks arbitrarily which days of the year they will use to average response times or which runs they throw out when it suits them.

    The only two things on the level in this world are Professional Wrestling and this job...everything else is Bull ----
    Interesting to say the least. Around here our dispatchers are trained to handle Law Enforcement, EMS, and Fire Departments. There is only one dispatch center that handles 911 calls. Am I reading this right as well You wait for a piece of paper to print out before responding? We usually get on the road and communicate with dispatch if we need further information or clarifications.

    The bottom line is that by changing the call center procedures they have improved response times. FYI, response time isn't really what we the fire fighters measure. It is what the person calling measures. It's sort of a quality thing. Quality isn't what the producer perceives as good quality, it was the customer perceives as good quality. So as a consumer of emergency services, I perceive response time as how fast from the time I dialed 911.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    lower bucks county, pa
    Posts
    53

    Default

    i didn't watch the video, but i have listened to FDNY on-line sometimes for a few hours at a time at work. the FDNY has a building inspection program they do on a daily basis. they assign certin companies to due a pre-plan of a building in their first due. more times then not when you hear them dispatched for a run you'll hear at least 2 companies being delayed due to (BI) building inspection. i wonder if the city is taking into account the fact that this is occuring.

  14. #14
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The city has been using the same measure for response times. Hence they are not skewed. They changed their dispatch procedures which improved response times. The firefighters should be proud of the improved service.

    Good Job FDNY!!!
    You have to be kidding me.....?????

    -One central communications location.....even the FBI to use that was bad...all you communications eggs in one basket is BAD!!! I guess we learned nothing from 7 WTC.....

    -UCT.....no information....usually wrong addresses....no cids....no size up....and I though we were supposed to do that at the receipt of an alarm...units responding blind to boxes....BAD...

    -This whole thing is NYC and the FDNYs way of cutting manpower....we want to show times it takes to get water on to a fire...but the city knows that will make them and the FDNY bad and they won't get the budget cuts they want.
    IACOJ Member

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Interesting to say the least. Around here our dispatchers are trained to handle Law Enforcement, EMS, and Fire Departments. There is only one dispatch center that handles 911 calls. Am I reading this right as well You wait for a piece of paper to print out before responding? We usually get on the road and communicate with dispatch if we need further information or clarifications.
    That "piece of paper" prints in about 5-8 seconds and is recieved simultaneous with the alarm in the firehouse.

    The bottom line is that by changing the call center procedures they have improved response times.
    Apparently you don't understand what I just wrote. The time they are telling you is now shorter is because they don't count the time it takes to gather the information from the caller...they haven't improved anything...they simply omited part of what was formerly counted among the response times. Understand?

    FYI, response time isn't really what we the fire fighters measure. It is what the person calling measures. It's sort of a quality thing. Quality isn't what the producer perceives as good quality, it was the customer perceives as good quality. So as a consumer of emergency services, I perceive response time as how fast from the time I dialed 911.
    A. We know any the time it takes us to arrive has actually remained the same and actually increased in many cases due to poor quality call takers not obtaining the info we need...thus necessitating the constant barage of 10-7's.

    That time hasn't improved one bit, it is only using amature parlor tricks they can claim such gains. 13 seconds gain, comes at a price...and that price is critical CIDS info, correct and confirmed addresses and numerous unnecessary responses by companies responding to incorrect boxes when multiple calls are recieved.

    B. They aren't customers, a customer is an ends to a means of making a profit (nothing wrong with that in the private sector) They are taxpayers, civilians and occasionaly victims.

    The quality has decreased and the bureaucrats rely on simpletons like you to believe their smoke and mirrors
    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-20-2009 at 05:15 PM.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Apparently you don't understand what I just wrote. The time they are telling you is now shorter is because they don't count the time it takes to gather the information from the caller...they haven't improved anything...they simply omited part of what was formerly counted among the response times. Understand?
    So you have "improved" response times as far as the bean counters are concerned? On paper everybody is doing better because you get to the fire faster...because the clock starts running later.

    But the price you paid is incorrect information, bad procedures, wrong dispatches. You have "better" response times (on paper again), but you risk much worse outcomes...

    That sucks for you guys...
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 09-20-2009 at 07:59 PM.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  17. #17
    FF-EMT Mzanghetti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    . . . . The time they are telling you is now shorter is because they don't count the time it takes to gather the information from the caller...they haven't improved anything...they simply omited part of what was formerly counted among the response times.
    Can I quote you on this? I have had a few conversations on this topic over the last few days and yours has been the clearest explanation I have come across

    Thanks,
    Mark Zanghetti
    FF-EMT
    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    So you have "improved" response times as far as the bean counters are concerned? On paper everybody is doing better because you get to the fire faster...

    But the price you paid is incorrect information, bad procedures, wrong dispatches. You have "better" response times (on paper again), but you risk much worse outcomes...

    That sucks for you guys...
    Perhaps I'm not explaining this correctly but yes the times appear quicker on paper...however it still takes as long if not longer than before because they simply start the response time clock later than before so as not to have to account for the long call processing times from dopey PD call takers, vs. trained fire dispatchers.

    In real time the person calling for help isn't seeing a fire engine any quicker than before.

    They did nothing more than a parlor trick at the expense of everyone's safety.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-This isn't even addressing the fact that we are again repeating mistakes that will compromise our operation against terrorist attacks. We have centralized our communications and made it incredibly easy to take out large section of our communications bureau (a`la- WTC 7)

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Perhaps I'm not explaining this correctly but yes the times appear quicker on paper...however it still takes as long if not longer than before because they simply start the response time clock later than before so as not to have to account for the long call processing times from dopey PD call takers, vs. trained fire dispatchers.
    The bean counters usually don't care about those pesky details. They think that they fixed all the problems and are happy that they can put "Response times improved under my tenure" on their resume. The fact that its bull honky and that people will suffer is irrelevant to people like that...
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    In 2008 the FDNY responded to 26,862 structure fires and only 86 civilians died. I really don't care how they came up with a 4:12 average response time, that is a great job by all of the brothers. Keep doing what you do where it counts, again great job.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. FDNY Response Times
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 06-09-2006, 03:17 PM
  2. Response Times
    By donethat in forum Emergency Services Administration
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-16-2006, 01:31 PM
  3. Response Times.............
    By hwoods in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 12-10-2004, 04:00 PM
  4. FDNY Response Times
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-11-2004, 07:40 PM
  5. Vol response times
    By shenry32 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 11-19-2000, 01:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts