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    That's why they use IQs to measure Intellectual Capacity, since stupidity has no bounds....

    And what about all of the other reports showing how effective the grants have been, rather than just one from a guy that was against the grants before they were even passed. Among other faults with his research process, like showing a lack of results in 2006 from SAFER awards, that weren't given out until that very calendar year. Minor details, so let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument...

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    Can you show where Dr. Muhlhausen's assessments are flawed? Where are the reports showing the effectiveness of the DHS grants? Let’s have an honest discussion on the merits, rather a simple slanderous comment that someone is stupid.

    The law of diminishing returns says that sooner or later, for every additional $1 spent, you receive less than $1 of benefits. Sounds like Dr. Muhlhausen’s report substantiates that rule applying to the DHS grant program.

    I've seen gobs of Federal $$$ wasted on projects that weren’t needed. Our government has been running huge deficits for years now. If we can’t find places to reduce spending in our own neck of the woods, how can expect anyone else to?







    Last edited by txgp17; 09-24-2009 at 03:39 PM.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Publishing a report in 2007 on the effectiveness of a grant program that started its first application period in 2005 and first awards in 2006 with the projects running until 2011 means that a report and conclusion were drawn on something that hadn't even started. That's like issuing a report dated Sep 25th 2009 that says the station grants haven't created any jobs. Well no kidding since the awards aren't going to be announced and official until tomorrow.

    There are all sorts of other holes in the report presented by the good Dr, they took it apart in Congress a couple of months ago. Other doctors found a lot of flaws in the research. I'm personally surprised this lady just wrote about it now, nothing like being 3 months behind the curve with outdated and inaccurate information. But when does the mainstream media ever let facts get in the way of a good emotion-stirring story...

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    MY *** you got to be kidding me since we got our new pumper hell our responses have been better because its a reliable truck we don't have to jump it off or wait for the damn air to build up is ready to go, these people need to start looking at a bigger picture and stop running there mouth. HMMMMMM but I guess its ok to give these failing companies MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollers to stay aflot, what has this country come to.

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    "The primary goal of the Assistance to Firefighters Grants (AFG) is to meet the firefighting and emergency response needs of fire departments and nonaffiliated emergency medical services organizations."

    TXGP17 - do you feel that the above has not been worked on? I don't know if we will ever meet all of the needs, but do you not feel that it is being attempted?

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    No, no, let's take the money for wildland fire mitigation and give it to the District of Columbia for their wildland fire risks, that's a better use for $3 million grant money... See the FH.com home page for that gem. Eligible or not, and I'm all for giving kids summer jobs to keep them out of trouble but when money is going to that while actual wildland fires are burning and there's no money for the effort, taking $3 million to mulch a DC park and pick up trash doesn't quite seem to add up. Methinks there is other money around to make that happen. I'd be interested in seeing a line item project plan to see how much is going to pay people to run the program instead of actually get things done.

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    Hey Blake--how long did it take for your comments to post on the Examiner site? Not sure if mine was too long or i timed out, but it's not showing up. And, it was a well-written one at that!! Not sure i can do it again without the "Angry Earl" coming to the surface!
    earl

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    They appeared to me at least right away. Think she will take me up on my offer?

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    The second try worked. I doubt that you'll see her in the field. My guess is that somebody thought the dust had settled on the inaccuracies of the original report, so this was the opportune time to try to sneak in a quick hit. Doesn't matter what reality is when there's an axe to grind!!
    earl

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    Sort of my take. I feel pretty confident she won't get educated.

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    This whole investigation was to primarily target the unions. They wanted ammo and the biggest ammo to catch attention is LODD. It should probably have been described a bit better about what the real benefits of the program and act were. A big attention getter for their agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    TXGP17 - do you feel that the above has not been worked on? I don't know if we will ever meet all of the needs, but do you not feel that it is being attempted?
    I've seen a lot of unnecessary spending, and I'm saying that based on what I've seen my own region, not pointing fingers at others. But if it happens here, I'm sure it happens other places.

    What I'd like to see are the objective reports that would contradict Dr. Muhlhausen's research.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    USFA has published several, they're in their Publications section at last check. Every other federal oversight office including OMB and GAO praise the AFG family of grants as the most efficient and effective program for meeting the goals of the grant program. So not sure what snippet of a statement Dr M has in the full report, but bi-partisan and independent people have ruled to the contrary of this report on AFG. If you research the group the Dr is with then you'll understand where the report is coming from, and why it's easily dismissed as highly biased since that bias showed up years ago before the program even started.

    There are plenty of other federal grant programs that use close to 25% of the funding for 'administrative' purposes that I agree with you need reworking. But AFG is under 3%, hence the reason it's being looked as as a model to rework a lot of other programs into. Funny part is a lot of the federal grant monies go to the states and they're the ones squandering most of it instead of giving out awards. They look at the grants as reasons to hire more people to the state payroll instead of letting the money live out it's purpose that the grant program was meant to do. There is a lot of waste but AFG sure ain't it. Trust me, we write for a lot of different grant programs and there is a ton of dough that isn't being used as efficiently as it could.

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    The other side to this is that it is great to get all of this new equipment that should help make us better and safer but its not happening. Our air packs and gear are lighter to reduce weight on us but several people die every year due to heat stress. The equipment is there but there is a lack in training and people stuck in their old habits. Look at how many people died because of light weight trusses and people still continue to die because there in too much of a hurry, the new latest and greatest gear has not helped. From looking at the charts numbers have not changed and I don't know how reliable the info is but either way he put out numbers that people will look at and only hurt the grant funding. Doesn't Heritage have a program that donates to fire departments or am I think of a different company? But yes I hope they keep this program around and pick on some other usless gov program. One point is that why would the gov increase the funding for staffing fire departments when so many cities don't have money to support public services. Has there been anything out there about the money going back to afg? I just see a need for further/better training with these funds and i think that will make these numbers disapear.

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    Our crew is responding to events wearing our structural and wildland PPE's now. Before it was almost always in jeans. We are being called for all mutual aid now where before we were being left out. Become active on a state level within many agencies and have been asked to help with many other levels of the fire service. Even our elected federal politicians now contact us directly. We began installing into our SOP's protocols for wearing seatbelts when responding and much more. I would say the AFG started our department on the path of learning and becoming a more compliant and functional fire department. Couldn't that also be considered as a measurement of success for a government program?

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    I have to mirror Jam24u's post... AFG has provided my volunteer fire department our first TOG with a full protective component. Prior to award, we were using long boots and coats, did not have hoods, and most were using 'fireball' gloves: and this was in 2002! We had old 'pressure demand' SCBA's Exhaust was all over the station, our alarm system was a 'manual' system: when you want the fire alarm to ring, insert the fuse... The firehouse, as a warming station / shelter had emergency power from a 5,000 watt generator fixed on our rescue (so it was out of service to provide very minimal power to the shelter.)

    Now, thanks to the generosity of the AFG program, we have an exhaust extraction system, a 45 kw generator and working fire / smoke / CO alarm system. The station is fully able to be a shelter at a moments notice, no trucks are out of service to power it, and all occupants breathe safe, clean air (without diesel soot, etc.) and the alarm system ensures a high level of safety.

    On the firefighting side, AFG provided us the ability to replace 20+ year old coats / boots and SCBA's. Now all of our firefighters are wearing compliant gear and are much better protected than before the grants. Supplemental monies provided us the ability to purchase hose appurtenances & adapters for interoperability with neighboring departments, and a small assortment of hand tools to supplement our extrication capabilities.

    Can I SHOW an actual reduction of injuries? No. In fact, I might actually show the opposite: an increase due to stricter injury reporting - we actually track more minor injuries that, in years past, went unreported to administration. Has the AFG program helped my department improve our capabilities and safety? YES!!! We only have $5,000.00 a year for buying new / replacement equipment... One pack or set of gear a year: 36 years to do them all... A shift from serious injuries to minor injuries is always a good thing....

    The AFG program has helped get my department out of the slump (from a previous long term Chief that said what we have is fine, it doesn't need to be replaced) and hopefully we can continue the forward progression for safety's sake...

    Now, hopefully I will be awarded the '09 ops grant to replace my 25+ year old hose and the '09 vehicle grant to replace my 32 year old tanker (water tender)

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    admpaul, Firemen's Fund has a program called the Heritage Fund, much different animal. The Heritage Conservancy has been around a long time in DC griping about everything. I killed some brain cells looking into what it is that they really do and I haven't found much of anything that they support.

    I agree completely with the training thing and the trusses. United Lab's FP grant is rumored to be research money to find a new glue for lightweight trusses so they won't fall apart so quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    admpaul, Firemen's Fund has a program called the Heritage Fund, much different animal. The Heritage Conservancy has been around a long time in DC griping about everything. I killed some brain cells looking into what it is that they really do and I haven't found much of anything that they support.

    I agree completely with the training thing and the trusses. United Lab's FP grant is rumored to be research money to find a new glue for lightweight trusses so they won't fall apart so quickly.
    BC79er I believe you meant Underwriter's Laboratory which they are doing in conjunction with Chicago FD from what I have been told.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Underwriters, United, basically the same since they're both getting money. Underwriters from DHS, United from me since they're the labs processing the blood tests for the doctor, seems like almost the same check amount for both. I need to fire me so that I can go to the hospital and claim being unemployed. Then we wouldn't have to pay a dime for the kid coming in 5 weeks....

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Underwriters, United, basically the same since they're both getting money. Underwriters from DHS, United from me since they're the labs processing the blood tests for the doctor, seems like almost the same check amount for both. I need to fire me so that I can go to the hospital and claim being unemployed. Then we wouldn't have to pay a dime for the kid coming in 5 weeks....
    Better you than me brother! LOL!
    Kurt Bradley
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    Makes it an even pair, 1 girl, 1 boy, so we're done after this one. Maybe foster kids down the road, but no more of our own. Momma gave up the wine for too long to go after a 3rd. Besides, once you go to 3 kids you have to change defense from man to man to zone and that screws you up in the mall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Makes it an even pair, 1 girl, 1 boy, so we're done after this one. Maybe foster kids down the road, but no more of our own. Momma gave up the wine for too long to go after a 3rd. Besides, once you go to 3 kids you have to change defense from man to man to zone and that screws you up in the mall.
    Also increases the number of grandkids events you have to attend, and that'll be here sooner than you will believe.

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    Got at least 20-25 years for that sez me and a closet o' weapons & ammo. The boy or the girl, both have to wait until married and ready to give us grandkids.

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