1. #1
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    Default Warning Light Question

    This came up at the firehouse last night;
    On a Tiller, where would the rear upper level warning lights need to be located as per NFPA....top of body or top of tillermans cab?
    I can see how it could argue that either way...Thoughts?
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    Seen many many tillers in my days, have never seen lights on top of the cab. Always on top of the body, on the same sheet metal that the tillerman steps out on to when he gets out of the cab.
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    NFPA 1901 - Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus

    13.8.13* Requirements for Large Apparatus
    13.8.13.1 If the apparatus has a bumper-to-bumper length of 25 ft or more or has an optical center on any optical warning device greater than 8 ft above level ground, the requirements of 13.8.13.2 through 13.8.13.6 shall apply.

    13.8.13.2 Upper-Level Opitcal Warning Devices.

    13.8.13.2.1 The upper-level opitcal warning devices shall be mounted as high and as close to the corner points of the apparatus as is practical to define the clearance lines of the apparatus.
    Having done plenty of fire apparatus refurbs of warning systems, it was always my understanding that having them on the corners of the tillerman's platform met this requirement.

    Mounting the lights to the back of the tillerman's cab would appear to give you a narrower profile.

    Consider this for your current tiller that is being produced. Instruct your manufacturer to install a set of low-flanged Whelen 500 series LIN 6's on the left/rear and right/rear corners of the cab in amber or red. They're only 2" tall, and will fit above or bellow the rear window. Surface mount them, or an "through body" option is available too. This will offer you some extra warning at a higher level to outline the tillerman's cab.

    Feel free to PM me if you have any questions/comments . Former contract emergency vehicle technician for the federal gov't. Have access to anything you need related to this.
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    Thanks for the help. The question came up from one of the guys at the station looking at pictures of the new truck, wich propted the debate, wich led to the question.
    1901 seems kinda vague in reguards to the lights... I would think that the top dorners of the tillermans cab count as "corner points" and "clearance lines" and there is nothing impracticle about the height, we have a heavy rescue in our town with lights that high on the rear. It dosent matter either way really, but I would think that it would require something. I guess it's all on how one inturperets the wording.
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    Remember too, that the top of the tillerman's cab may be very high- are the tree limbs along the routes in your local trimmed or will you be knocking off the lights on top of the tiller cab??????
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    What's a Tiller? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Remember too, that the top of the tillerman's cab may be very high- are the tree limbs along the routes in your local trimmed or will you be knocking off the lights on top of the tiller cab??????
    It was mentioned in the discussion at the firehouse, because of trees and bay door height that if something "should" be there, it would have to be "face mounted to the back of the cab, or a light bar of some sort on a bracket off the back so that it didn't sit higher than the tiller cab. But the debate still remains, "should" there be lighting there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoofTopTrucky View Post
    But the debate still remains, "should" there be lighting there?
    Not if it is impractical.

    From the looks of recent deliveries of tillers, most departments and builders apparently think it is impractical. That said, if your department wants them there, ask your builders to put them there. Ask several builders the question and see what kind of responses you get. I'll bet you get all kinds of reasons to keep them off of the tiller cab. I would also be willing to bet that if you insisted on it most of them would do it rather than miss out on a 3/4 of a million dollar sale.

    Personally, I think they should be as far apart as possible to be the most effective. Similar to DOT lighting they would help indicate the width of the vehicle while traveling. For what its worth.

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    THen the next question would be who decides if it's "impractical"? Obviously the MFG. but thats kind of a "grey" way to word what's supposed to be a "standard"
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    Actually, as far as tillers are concerned, I would think they would follow under the NFPA requirements for Lower-Level Optical Warning Devices, for lighting. Reason being is the platform that holds the "tiller box/cab", is usually under 6' in height (for placement of the lights). As well, the few tiller cabs I've seen, and the ones pictured below, are usually higher than the front cab on a level line. To put lights on top of the tiller cab, would be pretty silly (or job security for me).







    13.8.13.3 Lower-Level Optical Warning Devices.

    13.8.13.3.1 In order to define the clearance lines of the apparatus, the optical center of the lower-level optical warning devices in the front of the vehicle shall be mounted forward of the front axle centerline and as close to the front corner points of the apparatus as is practical.

    13.8.13.3.2 The optical center of the lower-level optical warning devices at the rear of the vehicle shall be mounted behind the rear axle centerline and as close to the rear corners of the apparatus as is practical.

    13.8.13.3.3 The optical center of any lower-level device shall be between 18 in. and 62 in. (460 mm and 1600 mm) above level ground.
    The wording of "as is practical", isn't to mean whether it should or shouldn't have the lighting. What it means is, to put the lights as close to the outer boundaries of the body, "as is practical". Any MFG that thinks it's "impractical", should reread and understand what the NFPA guidelines are.

    Tangent over, just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Actually, as far as tillers are concerned, I would think they would follow under the NFPA requirements for Lower-Level Optical Warning Devices, for lighting. Reason being is the platform that holds the "tiller box/cab", is usually under 6' in height (for placement of the lights). As well, the few tiller cabs I've seen, and the ones pictured below, are usually higher than the front cab on a level line. To put lights on top of the tiller cab, would be pretty silly (or job security for me).






    The wording of "as is practical", isn't to mean whether it should or shouldn't have the lighting. What it means is, to put the lights as close to the outer boundaries of the body, "as is practical". Any MFG that thinks it's "impractical", should reread and understand what the NFPA guidelines are.

    Tangent over, just my 2 cents.

    FM1
    I don't know what the wording for D.O.T. lighting, but the 3rd one has the marker lights at the top of the cab, thats th only one Ive see like that. Wonder if it "has" to be there or if they were specked.
    I would think lights surface mounted high on the back of the tiller cab, not necisarlity on top.
    Like I sad I can see the argument from both sides...either way, itmakes for a decent argument, and again..."as is practicle" is pretty vauge.
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    The second pic on the right also has the marker lights on the backside of the tiller cab. Honestly though, you would think that at least DOT would have had a say in whether they should be there or not. Or, that NFPA would have made a "guideline", that they should be there. Which is a different topic compared to your warning lights question.

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