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  1. #1
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    Default Rural Tender Fill Hydrant Project

    After posting this in another category it just didn't seem to fit so i am posting it here now.



    A couple of notices in advance (too many parenthesis in my story!)

    1) We are WEST COAST. Yes chicken tenders are great, but we donít need the evergreen 747 to join the water supply loop on a house fire. But letís NOT discuss this.

    2) We are a bedroom community in an unincorporated area. Nearest town: 15 minutes and 1000ft lower.

    3) Mutual aid is 20 minutes out for our third tender and second and third engines
    A couple of notices in advance (too many parenthesis in my story!)

    1) We are WEST COAST. Yes chicken tenders are great, but we donít need the evergreen 747 to join the water supply loop on a house fire. But letís NOT discuss this.

    2) We are a bedroom community in an unincorporated area. Nearest town: 15 minutes and 1000ft lower.

    3) Mutual aid is 20 minutes out for our third tender and second and third engines

    ****************************** ***************************

    Our district just finished building a rural tender filling hydrant. Since we are 100% volunteer and a bedroom community we needed a solution to weak weekday responses. We cannot afford to send our second due engine (mutual aid) to be a fill site engine because we need their manpower. So our solution was to turn our draft site of choice in the middle of our district (5 ft from all weather rd) into a pressurized hydrant system.

    We took a 550 gpm submersible well pump and mounted it inside of a 10" PVC pipe. On the end of this pipe are two strainers that stick up, creating a sort of 'F'. You will have to look @ attachment #5. The 10" pipe acts as a giant strainer over the submersible pump. The submersible pump is connected to a section of 6" blackened pipe, with a check valve. The check valve prevents back flow of water into the pump, causing a 'torque hammer' when the pump is turned back on while draining. Above this check valve is a 1/4" hole to allow drainage. About five feet past the check valve the blackened pipe leaves the water source and is routed up into a custom made manifold. We have 2- 2.5" ball valve fills off of the manifold. If you look at picture #3 you will see a 4" PVC pipe going down out of the manifold. This leads to the second fill manifold across the road (picture #4). The 4" PVC has a butterfly valve located below the main manifold for single pump operator ease.

    On the power pole supplying the 2 phase (rewired to 3 phase) we have quartz lights on a timer for scene lighting. The pump is switch action. You can actually carry on a conversation while filling two tenders with ease.

    We flow tested this hydrant to produce 550 gpm flow out of one 2.5" discharge with a projected flow of 750gpm.

    ****************************** ***************************

    As with any project, there are always hiccups the first time around. We thought of a better way to build our second hydrant system (spring 2010). See Picture #2

    Instead of taking the pump to the water source, we will bring the water by gravity to the pump. The pump is located in a 24" (or so) plastic culvert on end buried in the ground next to the water source. The 10" PVC will gravity feed the water into this culvert. The pump will then my anchored and suspended in the culvert, allowing for easier installation and easier pump removal (knock on wood). The installation will be easier because we will not have the unusual angles caused by the upward slope. Additionally, (this is just me speaking, not my FD) we could use retired hydrants. Just remove the internal guts and plug the operating stem hole. Have the hydrants rise up out of the ground, and mount a butterfly valve below them to control the flow. (no need to constantly spin a hydrant wrench. for the same price as two 3"x2.5" brass adapters we could just pick up a retired hydrant. And if the hydrant has a steamer, it would allow faster filling for tenders with storz connections.


    ****************************** ***************************

    Now my question is, what have you guys done/seen similar to this. We used to have a retired fuel pumper from the USMC, but it up and died on us, priming was a hassle, and it was unreliable. We are still looking to have this as a backup in case of power outage.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by drakescrossing; 10-03-2009 at 02:26 AM.


  2. #2
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    very interesting way to solve your problem and free up an engine.

  3. #3
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    OOOOOOOOOOOO........ Very Nice!

    I think project #2 looks even better. Easier access to the pump if if needed, and gravity feed for the pump. Nice!
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  4. #4
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    Looks like a very good idea. How much money is in a set up like this?

  5. #5
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    DFDMAXX, the second plan does make more sense. The simplicity would also result in less custom welding and faster installations

    I just realized that the pictures are too small to be able to read the notes, so i was going to post them on our website. Low and behold, our web host changed our subscription to a free version and axed our former plan. So now i have to pay 33% more for a different plan.

    Give me ten minutes and check out Drakescrossingfire.com/ruralhydrants

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    good news: the credit card on file expired a year ago. just entered my personal untill monday.

    Bad news: They are listing our site still as "free, so the TEMPORARY address is drakescrossing.tripod.com/ruralhydrants.html

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Looks like a very good idea. How much money is in a set up like this?
    our invoices for the first (and suqsequently most expensive) is about $9000. we already had the 2 phase service right there and available, and the pole was not too old, so we saved there. (note, the electrician wired it so that it could run off of two phase or turned it into three phase or something).

    Pricing areas:
    electrician's invoice was $1500
    Pump, motor, pump panel and 6" check valve were $3500
    PVC pipe, 6" well pipe, welding shop expenses, etc were $4000


    My projections for the second culvert hydrant will run about 6-7K, but could be higher dependent upon having to pull wiring, new service, new pole, etc.

    STICKER SHOCK--- I am auditing this project, per say. some of the tings aren't adding up, like there were already grounding rods in place, and one of our volunteers runs a machine shop and charged us $40/h for his time. the 3" iron pipe thread to 2.5" fire brass adapter cost $100 through his shop. online they are $40. Also he had an obsession with stainless... personally i like pvc strainers just as much!

    just a head scratcher. he is a volunteer ff for us, but charged us for his time, and several of us put in just as much time...
    Last edited by drakescrossing; 10-03-2009 at 04:17 PM.

  8. #8
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    If guy is volunteering his time (or facilities) to do the same thing he does on a day to day basis then I don't have a problem with him charging for it. If you don't like the rate you go to his competitor down the road.

    My water supply project (phase 1 complete, phase II not yet).

    New pond for fire protection. Town is pop 120 with no water system just private wells. Installed 12" PVC from middle of the pond to shore then to a 12" tee, vertical side of the Tee runs above surface (has a cover). We draft thru here using standard PVC hard suction sleeves. No expensive dry hydrant bits. The pond end of the pipe is the strainer drilled a couple thousand 3/8" holes in the bottom 1/2 of 1st 10' of the pipe. Not that big of a job actually. I did 1/2 of it a gal that thought she wanted to join the FD did the other 1/2. 12" cap on the end. Support let in the pond under the pipe. Backfill and fill pond. If dry year pump/refill the pond with well/garden hose.

    The horizontal leg of the 12" Tee is reduced to 8" PVC and runs into a 8' diameter 8' deep concrete wetwell/pit. This was a factory second I got (with lid) for free ($300 for trucking) from a precast company (they also gave me several 8' sections of 30" concrete culvert for the accessdrive. In the pit 8" PVC ends in a butterfly valve.

    Phase II is install 2x 750gpm high head centrifugal electric pumps I got from Navy surplus. These will supply the fire hydrant/hydrants (w/steamer) I got surplus from an AF base that was installing new water system. Hydrants may be one or two at the road for tanker load and LDH supply. But if I can find grant $ will trench in additional lines thru town. Otherwise we lay our Navy surplus 5" the 1st 1000ft towards the fire. Gets us to the "business district"/block and the fire station. Need another 1000ft of 5".

    Also have an Army surplus 200kw diesel genset (mounted to a Army surplus trailer/dolly) as backup power for the pumps. Still need starter/controls for the pumps. Have not broken the code of DOD surplus for such.

    LOTS of centrifugal pumps available from the Navy. Many new. Apparently they buy new spares with every ship and when the ship goes away the pumps are surplus. Few to none are reused thru the FEPP/FPP system (state forester). Most are on East/West coast (obviously) and typically little/no info in the online listings to tell you want size/capacity of the pump. A $10000 pump might be 1gpm @ 4000psi for a nuc sub or 1000gpm @ 20psi for loading potable water. Have not figured out a way around the lack of info.

  9. #9
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    neiowa,
    I have read a lot about your work. Very impressive, especially the bladder bags. I regularly search the military drms website for pumps. I do hate the lack of info. I am assuming that your pumps are not submersible. If so, do you have the butterfly valve line going into the intake of your pumps and the vault is to keep these pumps dry? This way the centrifugal pump is below the water line and thus no primer is needed, just open butterfly valve and pump, right?

  10. #10
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    Default Back to normal webpage

    The problem has been fixed. the photos are located on drakescrossingfire.com/ruralhydrants.html

  11. #11
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    neiowa,
    I have read a lot about your work. Very impressive, especially the bladder bags. I regularly search the military drms website for pumps. I do hate the lack of info. I am assuming that your pumps are not submersible. If so, do you have the butterfly valve line going into the intake of your pumps and the vault is to keep these pumps dry? This way the centrifugal pump is below the water line and thus no primer is needed, just open butterfly valve and pump, right?
    Cross reference with items listed at govliquidation.com can sometimes provide additional useful info. Either photos of item or data plates. Unfortunately govliq auctions that have closed are no longer easily searchable/accessible.

    Correct. Working theory is once started drafting can draw fire pond down as low as the intake strainer. Sloped intake pipe downwards from the pump intake. Strainer is approx 4' below the level of the pump which is approx 6' below water level in the pond. At present a good 200000gal.
    Last edited by neiowa; 10-04-2009 at 03:19 AM.

  12. #12
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    Drakescrossing,

    What's the final G.P.M. of the finished project ?

  13. #13
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    I filled our 3000g tender through (2) 50' sections of 2.5" in just under 5 minutes. Note that the pump though had to deal with the head pressure of the tank filling. The flow tests (like a regular hydrant) resulted in a capacity of 750gpm with 20psi residual. I believe that at 0psi it was like 900gpm.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    Note that the pump though had to deal with the head pressure of the tank filling.
    I noticed your tender has a 1,000 gpm pump. Seems like you could use the submersed pump to supply the fire pump on the tender and overcome the head pressure issue. Not being on a municipal water system, you could adjust the pump to a near zero residual (intake) pressure to achieve the fastest fill. Just an idea.

  15. #15
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    750gpm on the front mount. The whole idea for this system was so that we would not have to engage any apparatus pumps or auxiliary engine pumps. In doing this we keep the A/O in the ca to speed up the process if we were doing a shuttle.

    We could overcome the head pressure by just opening up the tank and moving the piping to fill from the top. I am just speculating as i have never seen inside the tank when empty.

  16. #16
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    Just making a suggestion, so don't take this as me telling you how to run your system. You have a very innovative tool here.
    I also like the idea of the A/O staying put. But, doesn't someone have to make a hose connection, turn on the submersible, open the fill hydrant valve, and open a valve on the apparatus? If that's going on, seems like the A/O could either get involved and engage the pump, or who ever is doing the hook up could engage the pump. If both people involved knew their "assignments" to pump water on, shouldn't take too long.
    Maybe I'm missing something. Is there pump to tank piping on your tender? Or would it require another hose hookup to fill the tank? Seems worth a try to see if it gains any time to overcome the head pressure issue. Our tanker (sorry, in KY it's a tanker) direct fill is piped in the bottom of the tank. Some of our weaker hydrants will stop pushing water into the tank at about 2/3 full, so we end up running the water through the pump and tank fill piping to overcome that problem.

  17. #17
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    we do have someone working the couplings and pump switch on the ground. I am not sure if the piping leads to the bottom or not, i was just saying it might be even faster than my tested 600gpm tested fill rate. We have not done much testing with it yet, nor actually used it on a call. We are thinking of trying the rural water grade for ISO after being audited yesterday. We just have to run the numbers.

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