1. #26
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    Default Barton-American Pumps

    Quote Originally Posted by drakescrossing View Post
    Quote from hale's website:

    "In 1989, Hale acquired Godiva in Warwick, England. Godiva is a manufacturer of portable, high-pressure, and rear-mounted fire pumps and is one of the leading fire pump manufacturers outside the United States. This acquisition allowed Hale to bring the USA based Barton/American Godiva fire pump products under the Hale umbrella of products."
    A pump mechanic (he serviced pumps in three states) had told me that Barton-American was bought out, parts are no longer available and the pump is now a boat anchor. I checked with Waterous of St. Paul, MN to inquire if they were the ones that bought out Barton-American. They emailed me and told me it was Hale. I emailed Hale several times to inquire if parts are still available. Hale never responded back.

    I will check with Darley if spare parts are available for Barton-American pumps then. Thank you for the info!
    Last edited by FIRE117; 10-15-2009 at 07:32 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Today a customer came in with pictures of some valves that needed rebuilt. They had a serial number, date (1976), but not a name. Four bolt flange inlet and six bolt flange outlet. We called Darley and they were able to confirm it was theirs in less then a minute. The only problem was that they couldn't ship the parts today because UPS had already picked up. That's some horrible service there, right? (/sarcasm)

    Try getting answers that quick from either Hale or Waterous. Don't get me wrong, they all give good service. I have just found that getting answers from Darley is quicker. Waterous would rate second and Hale third. It isn't the people though, it is the levels of bureaucracy in the different companies that must be dealt with and voice mail (ugh).

    By the way, I am a Waterous fan. I love the quiet chain drive versus spur gears with minimum tooth contact (Hale) or helical gears (Darley) with more tooth contact but somewhat quieter operation. The ball type transfer valve with a floating seat beats the heck out of the cylinders used by others and can even be operated at pressure instead of idle. Oh, almost forgot their flame-plated impellers. Its great when the wear ring actually does the wearing and you don't have to replace the impeller or order special sized wear rings to rebuild a unit. Also, most of their pumps have a higher reserve capacity rating than the others (at elevation this is important). That said, all three build great pumps that will give many years of service when operated correctly.

    Hale has a much wider variety of product, in my opinion. The only product they have made in the last three decades I don't care for is the Torrent valve. Other than that, they have a pump for any application you can imagine. If you try to stump them with a situation, their excellent engineering staff can help you. Top notch engineering.

    If your department is shelling pumps on a regular basis it could very well be they are being mistreated in some way, unintentionally or not. Sure, you might have a lemon but most of the pump problems I have run into could have easily been prevented by following the manufacturer's recommendations.

    When it come to which pump you should buy, you really can't go wrong. However, if it is a larger department with a full time maintenance staff, the mechanics should be listened to. The pump they are most comfortable with is the one that will be taken care of best because they are familiar with it. They will know the individual quirks, they all have some, and will be able to service and maintain them the best.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Try getting answers that quick from either Hale or Waterous. Don't get me wrong, they all give good service. I have just found that getting answers from Darley is quicker. Waterous would rate second and Hale third. It isn't the people though, it is the levels of bureaucracy in the different companies that must be dealt with and voice mail (ugh).
    I'd just say that when I have a Waterous question or need advice, I pick up the phone and call them. Invariably, I get the answer before hanging up the phone. If I need a part, the order goes in right then. Just have the pump's serial number handy.

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    This is one of those MSA vs. Scott debates.

    All three make good stuff.

    I like Hale, but honestly I haven't had much exposure to Waterous or Darley.

    We did perform a pump test on our 1988 FMC and it pumped like a champ.

    1250gpm single stage with a CAT 3208 powerplant.

    spurt test at 165psi showed 1287gpm from draft running probably 2200rpm.

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    Or is it Scott vs MSA vs (anything else)?

  6. #31
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    Default Hale and Waterous

    My FD has about 75 engines and are currently 50% Hale and 50% Waterous, most 1500 with a few 2000 GPM. Here are some observations after teaching pump operations for 5 years:

    1. Corrosion - the Hale generates more rust, so much that relief valves and transfer valves are frequently in need of repair. I don't know if we spec'd low quality iron, but that's what we got. The Waterous is much cleaner inside, and has more anodes (to draw rust away from the iron case).

    2. Layout -both the Hale and Waterous originated from the same specs and pump panel layout is nearly identical. Just goes to show you you can spec anything. Both have the same amount of working room behind the pump panel (for repairs or lubrication) and are user friendly.

    3. Pumping Ability - due to the rust, the Hales have had problems drafting, with rust collecting in the main drain and bleeders. However, those Hale equipped engines that have been well maintained (good captains) continue to pump and draft well. Recently I did a side by side draft comparison betweem a 2000 Hale and a 2008 Waterous (both 1500 GPM). The Hale consistently pulled a draft 20 seconds faster than the waterous.

    4. Accessories - Hale primers are MUCH more reliable and longer lasting that those installed on Waterous. The latest have the Waterous air primer which so far works great. The Waterous relief valve is a far superior unit than the Hale TPM relief valve, but the TPM does more. But coupled with the rust, it has been a constant problem. Waterous transver valve is superior too, even with the electric control - no problems ever.

    5. Transfer Case - Hale pumps engage with zero noise. The Waterous pumps are noisy and we have experienced gear grinding issues that seem to be "normal." Just something we have learned to deal with. Very frustrating when spending that kind of money though.

    IMPORTANT - I would rate them equal for the most part, maybe a slight edge toward the Waterous because the transfer valve and relief valve are better. But the gear noise tilts me toward hale a little. I recently had the option of replacing my engine with a 2004 Hale-equipped engine or a BRAND NEW Pierce with a Waterous - I chose the older truck. The pump was part of the decision but not the only factor.

    THE BIGGEST problem we have had is the decision to go with governors over relief valves. The Class 1 unit is more complex and created numerous problems when they first appeared in my FD (although after an aggressive training program most problems were resolved). We are now using the FRC Pump Boss and I would highly recommend it. Very user friendly, fewer training issues, and improved tech support.

    Sorry for being long winded. Hope this helps. And if you are considering the PUC, I don't like the pump specs unless you are using it for a "rescue engine" and won't be pumping high pressures or big GPM's. Makes sense for a resue truck but not a structural engine.

    One more thing - although most are 1500 GPM, they will all pump over 2000 with a good hydrant. A recent local volume test using a Waterous 1500 GPM pump through a single 6" hard suction at a 3000 GPM hydrant yielded 2700 GPM's. I was impressed. Don't know if the Hale could do that, but the Hale pumps will draft 1800-1900 easy.
    Last edited by 16Scott; 10-17-2009 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Additional Info

  7. #32
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    Default Darley Pumps

    Our department currently operates several pieces with Darley pumps and have not had any operational issues with them. They where custom built units manufactured by New Lexington Fire Apparatus and equipped with Darley pumps.

    We recently completed specifications for a new CAFS equipped engine and selected a Darley LDMBC 1500 gpm single stage pump equipped with Darley's AutoCAFS system. This decision was made due to our previous experiences with their pumps and their second to none customer service. Darley will also be building the apparatus for us on a Spartan MetroStar Chassis utilizing Darley's Copolymer Rescue Pumper Body.
    http://www.bruinvfd.com/news.htm

    In the October edition of Fire Apparatus Magazine there is a profile of the W.S. Darley Company which gives an interesting history of their pumps and apparatus including the PUC project with Pierce.
    http://www.darley.com/rokdownloads/i...ineArticle.pdf

  8. #33
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    I know my answer is a loaded one because I work for one of the companies in question, but I would like to take the opportunity to mention a few things about Waterous.

    First some of the features we offer that you won't find on any other pump:

    Ball-style transfer valve - If you are looking at a two-stage pump there is no doubt ours is the best. We developed a ball-style transfer valve in 1977 that makes changing between pressure and volume much smoother. The valve requires no grease and will operate with as much as a pound of sand per gallon of water flowing through it without jamming.

    Flame-plated impeller hubs - We again are the only ones who offer this. (Standard on everything 1500 GPM and up, optional on 1250 and down.) The flame plating process consists of adding tungsten carbide to the surfaces to e protected from wear. This unique process produces extremely hard, well–bonded, wear–resistant coatings which consistently outwear hard chrome plating, tool steel and solid tungsten carbide.

    Chain drive transfer case - Extremely quiet operation, more durable than a gear drive (especially with spur-cut gears), much larger surface area transferring power from the driveline to the pump.

    Our service and support - Unmatched in the industry. We take pride in having a staff that has the technical knowledge to help you solve any problems you have. We maintain service parts availability for a minimum of 20 years after we cease production on a model. We have parts IN STOCK. If you get us the order by 2PM Central time, we can almost always ship the parts the same day. (95 percent of the time per our last audit.)

    WE ARE 100% AMERICAN MADE!!! - All castings and forgings come from American foundries (not China and Taiwan like some other folks use). All components are machined on-site at our plant in South St. Paul, Minnesota. All pumps are thoroughly tested both hydrostatically and dynamically after assembly at our plant.

    Bottom line: we are not just a pump assembler, we are a proud American manufacturing company. Look on some of those other tags out there, you'll see them advertising being "assembled in America". What does that tell you about where their components come from?

    I can also tell you from a personal perspective, everyone at Waterous, from the folks who deburr parts right on up through the company president, all take great pride in what we do, and feel this is a great company to work for. People don't leave here for greener pastures, except when they retire.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16Scott View Post

    4. Accessories - Hale primers are MUCH more reliable and longer lasting that those installed on Waterous. The latest have the Waterous air primer which so far works great.

    =====================

    5. Transfer Case - Hale pumps engage with zero noise. The Waterous pumps are noisy and we have experienced gear grinding issues that seem to be "normal." Just something we have learned to deal with. Very frustrating when spending that kind of money though.

    =====================

    One more thing - although most are 1500 GPM, they will all pump over 2000 with a good hydrant. A recent local volume test using a Waterous 1500 GPM pump through a single 6" hard suction at a 3000 GPM hydrant yielded 2700 GPM's. I was impressed. Don't know if the Hale could do that, but the Hale pumps will draft 1800-1900 easy.
    Sorry to chop up your post but I did want to respond to a couple of things. First of all, thanks for all the kind words, we take pride in our pumps and are hope they will continue to serve you well.

    ==========================

    On the primers, what were the specific problems you had? Were they related to the priming pump itself or the priming valve mounted up on the pump?

    At one time we issued a recall on the early VPO (oil-free) priming pumps due to an issue with the vanes breaking when under water pressure. These units were only produced from late 2000 through early 2001 and then they were pulled off the market until the design could be corrected. The new VPO was introduced in 2002 and we have seen very few issues with them.

    I can tell you that for a period of time certain apparatus builders were installing a primer from another manufacturer on our pumps, and we do receive a lot of calls with complaints about those units. In many cases they get replaced with our primers once the other units fail. Another common issue we run into with primers is people using antifreeze instead of priming oil on the older oil-type priming pumps. This is not recommended and can cause problems with the priming pump that will lead to failure.

    =================================

    With regard to transfer cases and pump shift problems:

    A number of people experienced shifting problems caused by residual torque on the driveline of the truck caused by the automatic transmission. Allison has recently corrected this problem in their MY'09 software. The new Allison TCM is designed to assist users of any split-shaft transfer case getting the case into operation.

    For the record, Waterous pumps were not the only ones that experienced problems from this. I have been in plenty of repair shops and seen other company's units damaged from the same problem.

    If you ever have a problem with a unit not shifting properly please don't hesitate to give us a call so we can troubleshoot the problem with you. You can call us in parts & service at 651-450-5200.

    =====================================

    With regard to pump ratings and maximum flow:

    Pump ratings are always from draft. a rating of 1500 means that the pump can operate at flows of 1500 GPM @ 150 PSI, 1050 GPM @ 200 PSI, and 750 GPM @ 250 PSI, all from draft, for sustained operations.

    When you are operating from a pressurized water source all bets are off. Your restriction generally will come from your supply, not your pump. If you have unlimited supply then your restriction will be the number of discharges on the truck.

    I have personally taken a 1978 pumper with a Waterous CM pump rated at 1250 GPM and flowed in excess of 3700 GPM through it. How's that for big water? LOL We were supplying the pump with multiple 6" lines from a hydrant system with 150 PSI of pressure. We had every discharge on the truck wide open flowing into master stream devices and we still had 85 PSI residual intake pressure. If we had more discharges we could easily have flowed 5000 GPM, possibly more.

    Anyways, if anyone has any pump questions please feel free to shoot them my way. If I don't know the answer, I will know someone who does!
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  10. #35
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    Default Rosenbauer pump video

    Quote Originally Posted by PRRESCUE View Post
    If you can check the Rosenbauer pump. with their autoprimer. We currently are developing a tanker and it will have that pump. We also have a foam unit with that pump and it had work flawlessly.
    Here's a short video about the Rosenbauer NH Pump
    http://rosenbaueramerica.com/videos?...mps.flv#Player
    Last edited by ArdmoreVFD; 11-05-2009 at 08:47 PM. Reason: forgot the link! Doh!

  11. #36
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    We had been Hale for 17 yrs. With the newest unit having an AP-50 pto pump. We took delivery of unit in Sept 2003. In July 2005 the mechanical seal laid an egg. Hale was generous and gave the seal but no labor. Wow in September 2009 mechanical seal in pump laid an egg again. Talked to hale rep and they were concerned for a short while, they're going to give seal but no labor, but also added that it was 6 yrs old and that the seal should of been replaced anyway. When i sent a response back about the issues since new, and that the seal was not 6 yrs old in fact it was only 4 yrs old as it was replaced in 2005 they must have chose not respond to emails. Come next week were going to landline the rep i had talked to earlier about issues with seal. Having had all this with the last truck the new truck that is being spec'd will have a change in it, Waterous. Anyting but Hale! One big thing is the pump hour meter says pump has 31 hrs on it. So quality or lack of!
    Cut response short, I could go on all day about this. Stay safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    We had been Hale for 17 yrs. With the newest unit having an AP-50 pto pump. We took delivery of unit in Sept 2003. In July 2005 the mechanical seal laid an egg. Hale was generous and gave the seal but no labor. Wow in September 2009 mechanical seal in pump laid an egg again. Talked to hale rep and they were concerned for a short while, they're going to give seal but no labor, but also added that it was 6 yrs old and that the seal should of been replaced anyway. When i sent a response back about the issues since new, and that the seal was not 6 yrs old in fact it was only 4 yrs old as it was replaced in 2005 they must have chose not respond to emails. Come next week were going to landline the rep i had talked to earlier about issues with seal. Having had all this with the last truck the new truck that is being spec'd will have a change in it, Waterous. Anyting but Hale! One big thing is the pump hour meter says pump has 31 hrs on it. So quality or lack of!
    Cut response short, I could go on all day about this. Stay safe!
    It could also be an operator issue rather than quality. Mechanical seals to not like to be overheated. Certain combinations of RPM, ratios, and HP curves lend themselves to easy overheating where even the best operators can get caught at a busy scene.

    Just sayin'.

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    our opinion is hale products quality left yrs ago. the first year it wouldnt pass tests. it will now that its been repaired again. we kept the hale cbp that was on our 1978 tanker when we got rid of it. 25 yrs old and still works no problem. like i said our opinion the ap50 was junk from start. now that we have put another 3500. into it it will pass pump test. our opinion hale junk!

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    I got a Darley I'll trade ya. T.C.

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    Unless you happen to get a lemon I personally feel you can get good pumps from all of the mfgs. If you are set on the boby builder you mentioned I would not spend thousands extra for a Hale or Waterous even though I like Waterous.

    Lets be logical. If the Darley was no good do you think the body mfg. would be using it. It would ruin their business if they were all bad.

    Thril

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    A hale rep in service told me today ( november 24,2009) that a lemon would not have gotten out the door! plain and simple, there was no way it would happen! Quality inspection would not let it. We have had good luck in the past with hale. Im saying that there was a problem with pump from day 1, along with the ESP primer, which is in the cellar if anyone would like to purchase it. As far as changing pump out now, it will not happen. What we did do was buy a new CET portable pump for the compartment. The pto pump will be used only when needed. stay safe.

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    quality inspection would not let it happen? i heard that before too regarding an ESP primer and torrent valves that will plague me for the life of a few pumpers.

  18. #43
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    We changed the ESP primer out in 2007 for an Air-prime. it works great and its being spec'd on our new truck.

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    Unless you rig a oil tank to it,I wouldn't take the gift of a ESP primer.We've retrofitted(oiled)all of ours and the new rig has a Trident Air-Prime. And I LIKE Hale,just NOT those oilless primer. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    our opinion is hale products quality left yrs ago. the first year it wouldnt pass tests. it will now that its been repaired again. we kept the hale cbp that was on our 1978 tanker when we got rid of it. 25 yrs old and still works no problem. like i said our opinion the ap50 was junk from start. now that we have put another 3500. into it it will pass pump test. our opinion hale junk!

    Did truck have an actual UL pump test from the mfg? A bit unusual that there would be one for 500gpm pump. If a 750gpm there typical is a UL test (as is ISO creditable).

    One reason you see many 500gpm PTO pumps rather than 750 gpm. Overall it is due to cost/expense - cost of UL pump test, additional 2-1/2" discharge requried, intake both side truck required, pony intake required, cost of large pump and PTO.

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    Yes the pump had UL from factory, its available if u spec it. We did.

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    I dont think i would want the mechanical seal either. FYI...you must not run it dry and it cannot get hot, ya know, like have the pump in gear and not circulate water. I once witnessed an operator keep 150 lbs on a line used for a protection line, he did not circulate water and guess what? gauge lines started popping and blowing off STEAM. There no warranty argument after that happens.

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    it wasnt. it was pumping water when it lost prime. We prime it before engaging pump. thats SOP. stay safe

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