ARFF Vehicle as tender

[Frmboybuck]

Just to throw it out there, in MO fire apparatus are exempt from weight, height, and width requirements.

Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around

[Catch22]

Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around

Not to be argumentative, but if you can't take one across a federal highway, how do they get to the scene of a crash off the airport?

I'm willing to be with the size of the axles and the tires, the PSI is less than a lot of the tractor-trailer rigs doing up and down the highways. There's a reason they can handle off-road ops as well as they do, and the tires distributing the weight are a big part of it.

[Frmboybuck]

Not to be argumentative, but if you can't take one across a federal highway, how do they get to the scene of a crash off the airport?

I'm willing to be with the size of the axles and the tires, the PSI is less than a lot of the tractor-trailer rigs doing up and down the highways. There's a reason they can handle off-road ops as well as they do, and the tires distributing the weight are a big part of it.

Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded

[Catch22]

Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded

Now, let me see if I've got this right. What you're saying is that a truck with three axles cannot exceed 46K? If that's the case, I need to take our pumper-tanker out of service and talk with the chiefs at my career department about taking all three of our 75' quints and our 102' platform off the roads.

We're talking about a truck with three axles, one steer and two drive (or do all drive and/or steer?), that has a GVW of 81K (what I'm finding with a quick search for the T-3000) with a load of 3K gallons of water, 450 gallons of foam, and 450 lbs of Purple K. I have doubts anyone's going to put 450 lbs of Purple K on board, or even 450 gallons of foam (another 3-4K saved) and might even pull off a lot of the dry-chem equipment. Just taking the dry-chem and a few gallons of foam off puts it below the 80K max for interstates.

[Frmboybuck]

Now, let me see if I've got this right. What you're saying is that a truck with three axles cannot exceed 46K? If that's the case, I need to take our pumper-tanker out of service and talk with the chiefs at my career department about taking all three of our 75' quints and our 102' platform off the roads.

We're talking about a truck with three axles, one steer and two drive (or do all drive and/or steer?), that has a GVW of 81K (what I'm finding with a quick search for the T-3000) with a load of 3K gallons of water, 450 gallons of foam, and 450 lbs of Purple K. I have doubts anyone's going to put 450 lbs of Purple K on board, or even 450 gallons of foam (another 3-4K saved) and might even pull off a lot of the dry-chem equipment. Just taking the dry-chem and a few gallons of foam off puts it below the 80K max for interstates.

Unless you are exempt, yes, thats what I am saying. Now remember, these are federal roads I am speaking of. I cant find anything exempting emergency appataratus from the federal weight and bridge formula limits. From what I am finding, most states do offer exemptions or extentions of some sort. A lot of states allow 67000 for a 3 axle truck on state highways. I would figure light bridges would still apply in some way. My only point is the ARFF trucks are not built for beating up and down the roads. They wont fit in a lot of places, especially rural, southern Missouri.

[bjlffire]

Hope this helps.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_vehicle_id_fire.php

If it is big enough they will move.

[neiowa]

In Iowa DOT's opinion on the matter is not relevant. FD exempt by law on limits weight and dimension. Co engineer evaluation of his roads/bridges is pertinent info. No "permits" required in any case.

Relevant info is intelligent preplanning planning. That is, what logical road/bridge load capacity might be for axle/combination axle loads, side/overhead clearances, turning radius/intersection dimensions. Relevant point of comparision is what else is using the same rural roads. In our case, as in much of rural America, 4x4 articulated tractors (50000+lb) pulling 9600gal tanks on 4 axles (105000lb) hauling hog manure.

Such as
http://www.jameswayfarmeq.com/pdf/Ul...09%20lores.pdf

ARFF are pretty capable offroad. The AF buys them with all wheel drive for a reason. They don't stay on paved roads when a plane crash occurs.

[neiowa]

Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded

Perhaps in your farm country where ever that may be, Varies by state. In many states multiaxle allowable load vary depending on WB of the bogie and how many axles present. You'll note increase in triples and spread axles in recent years. In Michigan youl'll see huge number of multiples.

Regs vary state to state for county, state, fed roads. Mo for example is very strict for dimensions on Interstate, surrounding states much less so. Feds don't set the standards for county/state roads. As noted, in Iowa (and some other states) FD are exempt in any case.

[neiowa]

See also thread:

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=106121

Everything I've seen says RUN at highest speed possible from anyone that suggests you acquire an Amtek ARFF. They did have structural fire secondary mission (had 2-1/2" discharges etc) but many many chassis problems (google). DOD is dumping them early for a reason.

[neiowa]

Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around

You're aware large aerials weigh more than that? Bronto is around 23k front 62k rear.

[Frmboybuck]

Perhaps in your farm country where ever that may be, Varies by state. In many states multiaxle allowable load vary depending on WB of the bogie and how many axles present. You'll note increase in triples and spread axles in recent years. In Michigan youl'll see huge number of multiples.

Regs vary state to state for county, state, fed roads. Mo for example is very strict for dimensions on Interstate, surrounding states much less so. Feds don't set the standards for county/state roads. As noted, in Iowa (and some other states) FD are exempt in any case.

Probably less than 50 mi from you....No, feds don't dictate the state/county rds. Only federal funded roads(interstate) Off road farm equipment is exemt from weight/size requirements but if you end up wet be prepared to build a new bridge. Yea tandem and tridem axles add to the mix as well as spreads. However, the ARFF can not be legally axled out with out modifications. I do understand that the are offroad vehicles hence my point that it would be tough to use one as a reliable tanker

[Frmboybuck]

Yea, I'm aware of what they weigh. Maybe they are exempt from the feds too and I haven't found it yet.

[neiowa]

Yea, I'm aware of what they weigh. Maybe they are exempt from the feds too and I haven't found it yet.

Rule of thumb in IA is before aerial is delivered to FD (owned by manufacturer) stay off Interstate (Fed Highway) such as I80/I35/etc or may get expensive ticket. Once owned by FD can run then on Interstate (in service).

[chiefengineer11]

Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?

Yes. AKA Coal Car

[Eno305]

I think the original question was whether or not it could be done... We operate a couple of Titan 8X8 3000gal ARFF units and we do consider them capable of operations on site in the absence of hydrants. With that being said- we typically just disregarded the notion of operating them in the support role as tenders because they're VERY capable platforms as first due... thank you very much!


The GVW is listed as 88000lbs... divided between 4 axles and tires that, I might add, have a MUCH greater surface area than any set of duals I've ever seen. This would undoubtedly skew whatever formulas you're trying to factor into highway limitations on a per axle basis.

Nevermind the fact that a disproportionate amount of fire apparatus is cataclysmically overweight in the first place... my understanding is there are exceptions to emergency vehicles. Then again... not my forte. I saw the bronto brought up a few posts ago... worth mentioning that one of its biggest drawbacks is the fact that it is almost overloaded BEFORE it's even painted. Okay... not THAT bad but pretty freakin' close. I have been told by informed sources that they're limited to smaller engines (by today's standards) because the front axle is so close to its limits.

Reality is the ARFF is an Engine by design... not a Tender- It can PUMP out its volume of water which would make up for any lack of actual dump ports... If you're going to be using it as a tender... why not just use it as an Engine and keep the structural apparatus in town with the hydrants where it belongs?


Let the frag fest begin!

[LVFD301]

Because in town we have no hydrants also!

Its a question of economics and supply. We may be able to get the ARFF trucks
through our state conservation-and our biggest need is hauling water.

[neiowa]

Because in town we have no hydrants also!

Its a question of economics and supply. We may be able to get the ARFF trucks
through our state conservation-and our biggest need is hauling water.

A good ticket at present tanker from DOD are AF Oshkosh fuel tankers. These are A/S32 R11 - the 6000gal with the strange slab side cabs. Reduce tank size to something around 4500gal to keep GVW in appropriate range. Mid 90s and quite a few available all around the US.

NSN is 2320012395371

[mikeyboy411]

My Department (Career) currently has a P-19 and a Titan 1500 that we currently assign as Water Tenders as a Secondary Assignment for them. Some of the Area we cover is very rugged and simular to what is seen in Iraq and Afganistan, so water and usability is a must. Both Units carry 1,500 gallons of water a piece and drive well.

The Titan works sweet.....

The P-19 has it's limits since it does not have any 2 1/2" discharges, but it does have the Roof and Pumper Turrets that can be used to fill Porta-Tanks. If possible and if you could afford it, try this and have 2 1/2" discharges (at least 4 at a minimum) installed.

As far as the question about how an ARFF Department runs in the Local Area (Mutual/Auto Aid) we also provide that to the surrounding Volly Depts. and the Titan responds since it is at that Station. Our County Fire Dept. also has us as Auto Aid on one of the local freeways for Truck/Large Fires.

And the comment about the Amertek..... We have issues with ours. The body has literally broken into 3 parts. When I did some research I also found that they have been known to jump out of Pump and roll and actually run FFs over. Our FFs have been drilled and instructed to not stand or operate infront of our Amertek. We use ours for the Training Area for the Army and also as our Reserve Unit.

If you can pick-up a Tender fairly inexpensive, then give it a try..... Pass it by a great mechanic and have them eval it before purchasing it though. They have been known to be beat up pretty bad.

Hope this helps.....

[FWDbuff]

And the comment about the Amertek..... We have issues with ours. The body has literally broken into 3 parts. When I did some research I also found that they have been known to jump out of Pump and roll and actually run FFs over. Our FFs have been drilled and instructed to not stand or operate infront of our Amertek. We use ours for the Training Area for the Army and also as our Reserve Unit.

There is a documented line-of-duty death of a federal firefighter (Fort Rucker, Al.) due to this.

[16Scott]

I see all the discussion about GVR and DOT, but no mention of the PUMP. Most military 1500/3000 have no structural pumping capability. While they can discharge water, it is at the standard pump and roll pressure which could be over 200 PSI. Our trucks have a single preconnect but they have a pressure reducing disk to make the line manageable. But it's only ONE 1-1/2" discharge.

Amertek builds a combo ARFF/structural truck for the US Army but it's only a 1000 gallon tank. very similar to a P-19.