1. #26
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    Hope this helps.
    http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_vehicle_id_fire.php

    If it is big enough they will move.

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    In Iowa DOT's opinion on the matter is not relevant. FD exempt by law on limits weight and dimension. Co engineer evaluation of his roads/bridges is pertinent info. No "permits" required in any case.

    Relevant info is intelligent preplanning planning. That is, what logical road/bridge load capacity might be for axle/combination axle loads, side/overhead clearances, turning radius/intersection dimensions. Relevant point of comparision is what else is using the same rural roads. In our case, as in much of rural America, 4x4 articulated tractors (50000+lb) pulling 9600gal tanks on 4 axles (105000lb) hauling hog manure.

    Such as
    http://www.jameswayfarmeq.com/pdf/Ul...09%20lores.pdf

    ARFF are pretty capable offroad. The AF buys them with all wheel drive for a reason. They don't stay on paved roads when a plane crash occurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded
    Perhaps in your farm country where ever that may be, Varies by state. In many states multiaxle allowable load vary depending on WB of the bogie and how many axles present. You'll note increase in triples and spread axles in recent years. In Michigan youl'll see huge number of multiples.

    Regs vary state to state for county, state, fed roads. Mo for example is very strict for dimensions on Interstate, surrounding states much less so. Feds don't set the standards for county/state roads. As noted, in Iowa (and some other states) FD are exempt in any case.

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    See also thread:

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=106121

    Everything I've seen says RUN at highest speed possible from anyone that suggests you acquire an Amtek ARFF. They did have structural fire secondary mission (had 2-1/2" discharges etc) but many many chassis problems (google). DOD is dumping them early for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around
    You're aware large aerials weigh more than that? Bronto is around 23k front 62k rear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Perhaps in your farm country where ever that may be, Varies by state. In many states multiaxle allowable load vary depending on WB of the bogie and how many axles present. You'll note increase in triples and spread axles in recent years. In Michigan youl'll see huge number of multiples.

    Regs vary state to state for county, state, fed roads. Mo for example is very strict for dimensions on Interstate, surrounding states much less so. Feds don't set the standards for county/state roads. As noted, in Iowa (and some other states) FD are exempt in any case.
    Probably less than 50 mi from you....No, feds don't dictate the state/county rds. Only federal funded roads(interstate) Off road farm equipment is exemt from weight/size requirements but if you end up wet be prepared to build a new bridge. Yea tandem and tridem axles add to the mix as well as spreads. However, the ARFF can not be legally axled out with out modifications. I do understand that the are offroad vehicles hence my point that it would be tough to use one as a reliable tanker
    Buck
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    Yea, I'm aware of what they weigh. Maybe they are exempt from the feds too and I haven't found it yet.
    Buck
    Assistant Chief/EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Yea, I'm aware of what they weigh. Maybe they are exempt from the feds too and I haven't found it yet.
    Rule of thumb in IA is before aerial is delivered to FD (owned by manufacturer) stay off Interstate (Fed Highway) such as I80/I35/etc or may get expensive ticket. Once owned by FD can run then on Interstate (in service).

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?
    Yes. AKA Coal Car

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    Cool

    I think the original question was whether or not it could be done... We operate a couple of Titan 8X8 3000gal ARFF units and we do consider them capable of operations on site in the absence of hydrants. With that being said- we typically just disregarded the notion of operating them in the support role as tenders because they're VERY capable platforms as first due... thank you very much!


    The GVW is listed as 88000lbs... divided between 4 axles and tires that, I might add, have a MUCH greater surface area than any set of duals I've ever seen. This would undoubtedly skew whatever formulas you're trying to factor into highway limitations on a per axle basis.

    Nevermind the fact that a disproportionate amount of fire apparatus is cataclysmically overweight in the first place... my understanding is there are exceptions to emergency vehicles. Then again... not my forte. I saw the bronto brought up a few posts ago... worth mentioning that one of its biggest drawbacks is the fact that it is almost overloaded BEFORE it's even painted. Okay... not THAT bad but pretty freakin' close. I have been told by informed sources that they're limited to smaller engines (by today's standards) because the front axle is so close to its limits.

    Reality is the ARFF is an Engine by design... not a Tender- It can PUMP out its volume of water which would make up for any lack of actual dump ports... If you're going to be using it as a tender... why not just use it as an Engine and keep the structural apparatus in town with the hydrants where it belongs?


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    Because in town we have no hydrants also!

    Its a question of economics and supply. We may be able to get the ARFF trucks
    through our state conservation-and our biggest need is hauling water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Because in town we have no hydrants also!

    Its a question of economics and supply. We may be able to get the ARFF trucks
    through our state conservation-and our biggest need is hauling water.
    A good ticket at present tanker from DOD are AF Oshkosh fuel tankers. These are A/S32 R11 - the 6000gal with the strange slab side cabs. Reduce tank size to something around 4500gal to keep GVW in appropriate range. Mid 90s and quite a few available all around the US.

    NSN is 2320012395371

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    Cool How it works for us.....

    My Department (Career) currently has a P-19 and a Titan 1500 that we currently assign as Water Tenders as a Secondary Assignment for them. Some of the Area we cover is very rugged and simular to what is seen in Iraq and Afganistan, so water and usability is a must. Both Units carry 1,500 gallons of water a piece and drive well.

    The Titan works sweet.....

    The P-19 has it's limits since it does not have any 2 1/2" discharges, but it does have the Roof and Pumper Turrets that can be used to fill Porta-Tanks. If possible and if you could afford it, try this and have 2 1/2" discharges (at least 4 at a minimum) installed.

    As far as the question about how an ARFF Department runs in the Local Area (Mutual/Auto Aid) we also provide that to the surrounding Volly Depts. and the Titan responds since it is at that Station. Our County Fire Dept. also has us as Auto Aid on one of the local freeways for Truck/Large Fires.

    And the comment about the Amertek..... We have issues with ours. The body has literally broken into 3 parts. When I did some research I also found that they have been known to jump out of Pump and roll and actually run FFs over. Our FFs have been drilled and instructed to not stand or operate infront of our Amertek. We use ours for the Training Area for the Army and also as our Reserve Unit.

    If you can pick-up a Tender fairly inexpensive, then give it a try..... Pass it by a great mechanic and have them eval it before purchasing it though. They have been known to be beat up pretty bad.

    Hope this helps.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    And the comment about the Amertek..... We have issues with ours. The body has literally broken into 3 parts. When I did some research I also found that they have been known to jump out of Pump and roll and actually run FFs over. Our FFs have been drilled and instructed to not stand or operate infront of our Amertek. We use ours for the Training Area for the Army and also as our Reserve Unit.
    There is a documented line-of-duty death of a federal firefighter (Fort Rucker, Al.) due to this.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Default ARFF Vehicles as Tenders

    I see all the discussion about GVR and DOT, but no mention of the PUMP. Most military 1500/3000 have no structural pumping capability. While they can discharge water, it is at the standard pump and roll pressure which could be over 200 PSI. Our trucks have a single preconnect but they have a pressure reducing disk to make the line manageable. But it's only ONE 1-1/2" discharge.

    Amertek builds a combo ARFF/structural truck for the US Army but it's only a 1000 gallon tank. very similar to a P-19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 16Scott View Post
    Amertek builds a combo ARFF/structural truck for the US Army but it's only a 1000 gallon tank. very similar to a P-19.
    See above. It was only 650 gallons. It was also possibly the biggest piece of $hit on four wheels. Amertek is no longer in business, I wonder why........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Buck -
    The 12,000 pound steer and 34,000 weight you refer to is for interstate only. Missouri will allow 14,000 and 36,000 on any other roads. You can go up to 20,000 pounds on the steer if you have the axle and tires to do it. Add a drop axle in front of behind the drives and you can gross 54,000 pounds and a second drop and you can go to 66,000 gross. The 54 and 66 is with 14 on the front(these are based on a 22 foot bridge). Also figured into all of that is the bridge and inter-bridge laws. But as Catch said a fire truck is exempt.

    Even though we are exempt in Missouri from weight and size. I would be very concerned about running something so oversize because if you get in a wreck it is something for the lawyers to be on you about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post

    Even though we are exempt in Missouri from weight and size. I would be very concerned about running something so oversize because if you get in a wreck it is something for the lawyers to be on you about.
    Big is not oversize. If the chassis is rated (axles, brakes, etc) for the GVW then it is NOT oversize or overweight.

    Is the truck/load/weight for the road/terrain? What would the reasonable man do (or perhaps what does the county engineer say about his bridge, culverts, & roadbed. What psi to road surface/axle load?

    My new 3000gal pumper tanker is 18k frt/46k rr tandem. Replaces an old milk truck tanker that was 2600gal 34k rr single. Much safer/more secure. Its big/heavy, but not concerned at al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Big is not oversize. If the chassis is rated (axles, brakes, etc) for the GVW then it is NOT oversize or overweight.

    Is the truck/load/weight for the road/terrain? What would the reasonable man do (or perhaps what does the county engineer say about his bridge, culverts, & roadbed. What psi to road surface/axle load?

    My new 3000gal pumper tanker is 18k frt/46k rr tandem. Replaces an old milk truck tanker that was 2600gal 34k rr single. Much safer/more secure. Its big/heavy, but not concerned at al.
    Actually, big does mean oversize, no matter the weight. Oversize pertains to the dimensions, not weight. Overweight pertains to weight, not dimensions. Oversize and overweight are two different things. Permits differ for both depending on the state, route, and the dimensions and weight.

    Weight is usually forgiven for fire appartus, I don't know about dimensions.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    Weight is usually forgiven for fire appartus, I don't know about dimensions.
    In Missouri, both are...

    RSMo 304.172: The provisions of sections 304.170 to 304.240 relating to height, width, weight, length and load restrictions for motor vehicles shall not apply to any motor vehicle and its attached apparatus which is designed for use and used by a fire department, fire protection district or volunteer fire protection association or when being operated by a fire apparatus manufacturer or sales organization for the purpose of sale, demonstration, exhibit, or delivery to a fire department, fire protection district or volunteer fire protection association.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Unless you are exempt, yes, thats what I am saying. Now remember, these are federal roads I am speaking of. I cant find anything exempting emergency appataratus from the federal weight and bridge formula limits. From what I am finding, most states do offer exemptions or extentions of some sort. A lot of states allow 67000 for a 3 axle truck on state highways. I would figure light bridges would still apply in some way. My only point is the ARFF trucks are not built for beating up and down the roads. They wont fit in a lot of places, especially rural, southern Missouri.
    I think you may be confusing federal funding with federal control. Weight and bridge formulas are set by each state, and 3 very different examples would be Illinois, Michigan, and here in Wisconsin. Enforcement is also done by the state.

    I'm sure the feds have some limits on weight, speed, and dimension that would keep the states from going too crazy, ( since they provide a certain amount of money, the can call some shots ) but laws are different from state to state because each state makes their own rules.

    Ever notice how the rules change on the interstate when you cross the state line? Same road, but different rules. For an example look up Wisconsin state statute chapter 348, " Vehicles - size, weight, and load." There may be many differences from your state.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    dfd - thanks

    catch - I know that we are exempt but why push it if you don't have to? I know there are many places that using surplus/homeade is the only option that they have. It wasn't that many years ago that we was in the same boat. I know that they are several surplus trucks out there that make good firetrucks, I just think that when you get to something that is so oversize as the hog that was being talked about at the start of this that it is not a good idea because of the size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    I think you may be confusing federal funding with federal control. Weight and bridge formulas are set by each state, and 3 very different examples would be Illinois, Michigan, and here in Wisconsin. Enforcement is also done by the state.

    I'm sure the feds have some limits on weight, speed, and dimension that would keep the states from going too crazy, ( since they provide a certain amount of money, the can call some shots ) but laws are different from state to state because each state makes their own rules.

    Ever notice how the rules change on the interstate when you cross the state line? Same road, but different rules. For an example look up Wisconsin state statute chapter 348, " Vehicles - size, weight, and load." There may be many differences from your state.
    Weight limits for a typical 5 axle truck on interstate roads is still 40 tons gross. Yes, adding axles and spreads vary but the gross limit remains the same no matter what state you are in
    Buck
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Weight limits for a typical 5 axle truck on interstate roads is still 40 tons gross. Yes, adding axles and spreads vary but the gross limit remains the same no matter what state you are in
    With that there is a lenth requirment. It is either 39 or 41 feet from the center of the front axle to the center of the last axle. Shorter than that and the wieght you are allowed to carry starts to drop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Weight limits for a typical 5 axle truck on interstate roads is still 40 tons gross. Yes, adding axles and spreads vary but the gross limit remains the same no matter what state you are in
    We were not talking about a typical 5 axle truck. We were talking about fire apparatus.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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