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    Default ARFF Vehicle as tender

    Has anyone considered using a ARFF vehicle, such as the Oshkosh T1500 or 3000 as a tender in regular structure fire protection?

    Thoughts? Seems I always see some in surplus.

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    While I know little about tender operations I will provide this input. Does the ARFF vehicle meet DOT standards? Does it allow for quick dumping? Will it meet NFPA standards (I know some people could care less, but you might)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Has anyone considered using a ARFF vehicle, such as the Oshkosh T1500 or 3000 as a tender in regular structure fire protection?

    Thoughts? Seems I always see some in surplus.
    Took a look at fielding an Oshkosh P15 as tanker/wildland when DOD was getting rid of them a few years ago. Pretty capable off road (8x8) Huge tank (5000gal) REALLY REALLY big though would have made getting moved to FD very very expensive. So did not proceed.

    http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id...s_fire_p15.php

    Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie82 View Post
    While I know little about tender operations I will provide this input. Does the ARFF vehicle meet DOT standards? Does it allow for quick dumping? Will it meet NFPA standards (I know some people could care less, but you might)?
    I would love to put more stock in NFPA standards, and I do strive to meet them, but realize I have to do what is needed to operate first.

    DOT to my understanding is met.

    Your quick dump question is one I had, but if you had one of the larger ones you could use them for a nurse tanker, while smaller tankers with quick dumps ran a shuttle.

    I was hoping others had already gone this route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post

    Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?
    No, a tender has wings (or a gravity box with an auger out the back) ........I don't think the Iowa DOT would be too crazy about a truck on 4 axles, weighing 131,000lbs, beating up and down their roads.
    Last edited by Frmboybuck; 10-06-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Took a look at fielding an Oshkosh P15 as tanker/wildland when DOD was getting rid of them a few years ago. Pretty capable off road (8x8) Huge tank (5000gal) REALLY REALLY big though would have made getting moved to FD very very expensive. So did not proceed.

    http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id...s_fire_p15.php

    Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?

    I guess I have driven worse across country - not that I would really
    want to though.

    I was looking at one of the 3k gallon range, such as the Oshkosh T3000,
    3000 gallon tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post

    Isn't a tender that thing that follows a steam locomotive around?
    Here in Missouri it is - but I was trying to be politically correct. Trying.

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    One important thing to think about is low weight roads and bridges....not many bridges will carry that weight
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    The width would be one of my biggest concerns. 10' is getting pretty wide for a lot of the two-lane highways and country roads.

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    The weight we are used to dealing with - we presently have a 5k gallon
    tanker. The width is an issue, even the T3000 is close to 9 feet - but 9 feet
    is less than a foot wider than many box trucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    The weight we are used to dealing with - we presently have a 5k gallon
    tanker. The width is an issue, even the T3000 is close to 9 feet - but 9 feet
    is less than a foot wider than many box trucks.
    Your 5000 gallon tanker does not weigh 131,000lbs. Depending on what kind of truck you have I would say it only weighs half that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Has anyone considered using a ARFF vehicle, such as the Oshkosh T1500 or 3000 as a tender in regular structure fire protection?

    Thoughts? Seems I always see some in surplus.
    There is a department a couple of counties over that has two of them. They had dump valves installed and they use them as tenders. They also use them as brush trucks and say they work really well for putting brush fires out in hard to reach places.(they can shoot the water farther with them)
    Puttin the wet stuff on the red stuff!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Your 5000 gallon tanker does not weigh 131,000lbs. Depending on what kind of truck you have I would say it only weighs half that much.
    I don't guess you are reading the entire thread.

    I am talking about an Oshkosh T1500 or T3000, both of which weigh
    much much less than the P15. MUCH less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I don't guess you are reading the entire thread.

    I am talking about an Oshkosh T1500 or T3000, both of which weigh
    much much less than the P15. MUCH less.
    Even so, you can not haul that much weight on 2 axles(T1500) or 3 axles(T3000). The legal limit on 1 drive axle is 17000 lbs...Steer is 12000lbs. You can not legally drive one on the roadway with out exemption and I highly doubt the state of MO is going to give that much weight the OK......
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    I've seen ARFF converted to tankers and wildland vehicles.

    Here is one:

    http://www.indianafiretrucks.com/pag...in_county.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Even so, you can not haul that much weight on 2 axles(T1500) or 3 axles(T3000). The legal limit on 1 drive axle is 17000 lbs...Steer is 12000lbs. You can not legally drive one on the roadway with out exemption and I highly doubt the state of MO is going to give that much weight the OK......
    Its not quite that simple. Wheelbase comes into play, etc. In Missouri
    axle weights can be as much as 22k and 36K on tandems.

    I will let you know a better figure here in a bit.

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    It is that simple....you are not going to gain enough on a ARFF vehicle to matter. Yes, in MO, secondary roads can carry 36K on tandems. You can not on interstate highways which probably does not pertain to you. However, on the T1500, you have 2 axles...No tandems without modifications. T3000 has 3 axles so max u could have is 48000 gross. I'd have to check the specs again but I believe the T3000 exceeds that by a long shot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    It is that simple....you are not going to gain enough on a ARFF vehicle to matter. Yes, in MO, secondary roads can carry 36K on tandems. You can not on interstate highways which probably does not pertain to you. However, on the T1500, you have 2 axles...No tandems without modifications. T3000 has 3 axles so max u could have is 48000 gross. I'd have to check the specs again but I believe the T3000 exceeds that by a long shot
    Just to throw it out there, in MO fire apparatus are exempt from weight, height, and width requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Took a look at fielding an Oshkosh P15 as tanker/wildland when DOD was getting rid of them a few years ago. Pretty capable off road (8x8) Huge tank (5000gal) REALLY REALLY big though would have made getting moved to FD very very expensive. So did not proceed.
    P-15 has 6K of water on board, plus you never would have gotten the permits to run one around your local roads. I forget the exact specs but fully loaded, they weigh in excess of 100,000....Plus they are 11'4" wide if I remember the width correctly. Not to mention I suspect the cost of maintenance would have driven your department to bankruptcy....lol

    Here's a partial picture of one (and my boys.) Part of the Andy Leider collection. Too freaking big to get a picture!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    P-15 has 6K of water on board, plus you never would have gotten the permits to run one around your local roads. I forget the exact specs but fully loaded, they weigh in excess of 100,000....Plus they are 11'4" wide if I remember the width correctly. Not to mention I suspect the cost of maintenance would have driven your department to bankruptcy....lol

    Here's a partial picture of one (and my boys.) Part of the Andy Leider collection. Too freaking big to get a picture!!!
    About 65 Ton Buff......And no Iowa would have never exempted one of these
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Just to throw it out there, in MO fire apparatus are exempt from weight, height, and width requirements.
    Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Well in Mo that may work then except for the Federal roads and bridges you couldnt cross. You would still have to find alternative routes around the light bridges in your rural district and depending how far south you are, you might be lucky to even have enough road to drive on. Iowa would have a stroke if you drove one of these pigs down the road. 40 Tons spread over 3 axles is a lot of weight to move around
    Not to be argumentative, but if you can't take one across a federal highway, how do they get to the scene of a crash off the airport?

    I'm willing to be with the size of the axles and the tires, the PSI is less than a lot of the tractor-trailer rigs doing up and down the highways. There's a reason they can handle off-road ops as well as they do, and the tires distributing the weight are a big part of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Not to be argumentative, but if you can't take one across a federal highway, how do they get to the scene of a crash off the airport?

    I'm willing to be with the size of the axles and the tires, the PSI is less than a lot of the tractor-trailer rigs doing up and down the highways. There's a reason they can handle off-road ops as well as they do, and the tires distributing the weight are a big part of it.
    Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded
    Last edited by Frmboybuck; 10-06-2009 at 06:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Im sure that an ARFF stationed at an airport could respond without an issue. However, If Toms Fire Department bought one to use as a tanker, i'll bet you would run into problems down the road(no pun intended). Yea, off road the psi makes all the difference in the world getting around. Federal laws dont care how many psi you are applying to the ground.....They go by axle weight. Total weight of an 12K on the steers or 34K on drives meaning the max this thing could weigh would be 46K.....It weighs almost double that loaded
    Now, let me see if I've got this right. What you're saying is that a truck with three axles cannot exceed 46K? If that's the case, I need to take our pumper-tanker out of service and talk with the chiefs at my career department about taking all three of our 75' quints and our 102' platform off the roads.

    We're talking about a truck with three axles, one steer and two drive (or do all drive and/or steer?), that has a GVW of 81K (what I'm finding with a quick search for the T-3000) with a load of 3K gallons of water, 450 gallons of foam, and 450 lbs of Purple K. I have doubts anyone's going to put 450 lbs of Purple K on board, or even 450 gallons of foam (another 3-4K saved) and might even pull off a lot of the dry-chem equipment. Just taking the dry-chem and a few gallons of foam off puts it below the 80K max for interstates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Now, let me see if I've got this right. What you're saying is that a truck with three axles cannot exceed 46K? If that's the case, I need to take our pumper-tanker out of service and talk with the chiefs at my career department about taking all three of our 75' quints and our 102' platform off the roads.

    We're talking about a truck with three axles, one steer and two drive (or do all drive and/or steer?), that has a GVW of 81K (what I'm finding with a quick search for the T-3000) with a load of 3K gallons of water, 450 gallons of foam, and 450 lbs of Purple K. I have doubts anyone's going to put 450 lbs of Purple K on board, or even 450 gallons of foam (another 3-4K saved) and might even pull off a lot of the dry-chem equipment. Just taking the dry-chem and a few gallons of foam off puts it below the 80K max for interstates.
    Unless you are exempt, yes, thats what I am saying. Now remember, these are federal roads I am speaking of. I cant find anything exempting emergency appataratus from the federal weight and bridge formula limits. From what I am finding, most states do offer exemptions or extentions of some sort. A lot of states allow 67000 for a 3 axle truck on state highways. I would figure light bridges would still apply in some way. My only point is the ARFF trucks are not built for beating up and down the roads. They wont fit in a lot of places, especially rural, southern Missouri.
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