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    Default What is your officer doing?

    The question what is your officer doing? comes from a training in which we where doing live fire drills. We where advancing hose line and a firefighter stated the officer should be inside the building doing recon. Or for say finding the fire and returning to the line and directing them to the fire. We have always trained the officer is second on the line to watch over things. We are vol. dept. with 60+ vol. and 6 career medics, we do have one or more Chiefs on scene for all incidents and always one before Engines hit the scene. He stated that is how its done and we are teaching wrong and should fix it. I have searched FF II , FFIII, Tactics books, IFSA manuals,and O.S.F.M. teaching programs and not found this. Who uses this and why would you put yourself in danager?

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    There is another thread on here title'd "Where does the Captain go" that has some good info regarding this. Hopefully this link will work:

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...t=officer+line

    As an officer, part of my decision depends on how many on the crew and who I have. My preference is not to be on the line, but right behind and off to the side of the nozzle-man. From here, I can try to get the "big picture", use the TIC and provide direction to the nozzle man as necessary. Again, depending on the situation, I might venture off to do a quick check of a room, but in general, I won't be too far off of the line.

    To me, the officer shouldn't be separated from the crew doing "recon" or searching for the fire, although I might get a little ahead if we are in a hallway with decent visibility or if the situation calls for it.

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    What he ^ said.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    What he said ^.

    What part of crew/team does this guy not get. You should never be more than arms legth from the line. Good way to have LODD with someone out scouting for the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What he said ^.

    What part of crew/team does this guy not get. You should never be more than arms legth from the line. Good way to have LODD with someone out scouting for the fire.
    Not sure if you're referring to my response or to the OP. If you're referring to my post, let me clarify. I will take a quick look into a room as we pass by to see if there are any obvious victims or dangers. I may also go ahead a little in a clear hallway or room, again to check for dangers or victims. I will only do this if I can maintain visual contact with my crew.

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    Eng34

    I was agreeing with you 100%. The LODD comment was for the guy with the idea of the officer doing recon by him/herself with no line. Another thing that comes to mind is 2in2out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Eng34

    I was agreeing with you 100%. The LODD comment was for the guy with the idea of the officer doing recon by him/herself with no line. Another thing that comes to mind is 2in2out.
    Always nice to be on the same page. Sometimes hard to tell in these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    Always nice to be on the same page. Sometimes hard to tell in these forums.
    That's the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What he said ^.

    What part of crew/team does this guy not get. You should never be more than arms legth from the line. Good way to have LODD with someone out scouting for the fire.
    Do much truck work? How do you locate the fire if no one is looking for it? Do you just drag hose through the house until you get lucky? On the majority of S/F I end up as the OVM and because of that I am almost always alone. Working solo as a member of a truck company performing a search takes experience, training, and common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Do much truck work? How do you locate the fire if no one is looking for it? Do you just drag hose through the house until you get lucky? On the majority of S/F I end up as the OVM and because of that I am almost always alone. Working solo as a member of a truck company performing a search takes experience, training, and common sense.
    The OP was talking about the officer of an engine company (at least that was my assumption). I realize that oftentimes the truckies get split up. I also realize that they are often tasked to located the seat of the fire as part of the primary search. Around here though, the search team would still consist of 2 people. I can't see sending a person in alone to do the search.

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    My reply isn't directed at the OP but at RM1524's comment;
    What part of crew/team does this guy not get. You should never be more than arms legth from the line. Good way to have LODD with someone out scouting for the fire.
    As for the engine company officer. If their is adequate staffing to allow for the officer to be "off" of the line then that's where he needs to be. An officer should be taking in the big picture and you can't do that when you are on the line. If circumstance call for the officer to move ahead of the line to determine where the line needs to go then he should. The engine company officer is responsible for getting the hoseline in place where it is going to do the most good and he needs the ability to move around to do that. Can't do it from the hoseline.

    As far as searching alone, IMO I'm not searching alone. I just happen to be the only FF in the room at that time. The interior team is already inside by the time I enter the structure and at least one engine company is inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Do much truck work? How do you locate the fire if no one is looking for it? Do you just drag hose through the house until you get lucky? On the majority of S/F I end up as the OVM and because of that I am almost always alone. Working solo as a member of a truck company performing a search takes experience, training, and common sense.
    No we don't do much truck work. I was replying to the OP and the way i read it he was talking about the engine company officer. We search as we make entry with a charged line. Yes someone will stay at the door with the line while a search of a room is made. Searching a room with a line at the door and someone with it is alot differnt than someone out scouting without visual contact with a hose line. We usually have a pretty good idea of where the fire is because the officer on the line HAS to do a 360 before we enter. There is times where being away from the line is no big deal, but i don't think that it is good pratice to do all the time.
    Last edited by rm1524; 10-09-2009 at 02:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    No we don't do much truck work. I was replying to the OP and the way i read it he was talking about the engine company officer. We search as we make entry with a charged line. Yes someone will stay at the door with the line while a search of a room is made. Searching a room with a line at the door and someone with it is alot differnt than someone out scouting without visual contact with a hose line. We usually have a pretty good idea of where the fire is because the officer on the line HAS to do a 360 before we enter. There is times where being away from the line is no big deal, but i don't think that it is good pratice to do all the time.
    If it works for you, great. We simply don't operate that way. Your statement;
    What part of crew/team does this guy not get. You should never be more than arms legth from the line. Good way to have LODD with someone out scouting for the fire.
    is simply your opinion based on your experience. In my experience being away from the line isn't that big of a deal and speeds up the search exponentially and isn't any more dangerous than anything else we do when done right.

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    jl-

    Most of our work is SFD so yes this works very well for us. I'm sure if we was bigger and worked MFD when we would operate different. Any MFD that we would be on will be a MU and we are there as an engine company.

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    My engine company officer is near the line, not on it.

    My truck crew, interior team, is 3 guys. Very often in before any line.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Even as an engine co. officer, I am not held hostage to the hoseline. It is actually my preference to not be on it.

    In terms of fire attack, my job is to oversee what is going on and to be a cheerleader for other people that are confined to the line. You simply cannot do that, especially the first when you are the second or third guy on the line pulling slack. A lack of manpower may require this, but if manpower is not a problem, the engine officer needs to be off of the line - not on the nozzle or being the back up guy.
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    U/A, if the fire has shown itself on the first floor, the FF(s) pull the line to the door while I do 360 (or as much as possible). I then meet them and direct them to entry point. I go second and assist in pulling line, but am not the guy to go back and forth to the last corner or choke points, I only pull what I'm holding.

    If U/A the fire has shown itself on the second floor, the FF(s) pull the line while I 360, and then I will enter as far as safe dependent on circumstances to check for basement fire or first floor fire. If finding none, I'll locate the stairs, and direct my guys to them where we advance together.

    Our officers are given the leeway to make decisions on their own, not only after being told to by command, with regards to attack point, line choice, etc. My last fire (last day) I ended up with the line and put the fire out myself. Not typical, but a couple events occured that put me in the position to do so. In that case, yes, I was concentrating on the suppression, but still able to observe conditions in a limited capacity. I knew that a second officer was close behind me and that he would be basically assuming interior command since he was unencumbered by the line as I was.

    This is what works for us, it may not work for you.

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    Default What is your Officer doing?

    As a Truck Officer, I try to always lead the way. I am first in the structure or first on the roof. When I am tasked with Engine duties, I place the rookie on the nozzle and I am right behind him.
    Last edited by AbduNur; 10-26-2009 at 03:36 PM.

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    There is absolutley no situation, whatsoever oneshould leave the crew they entered with, unless there are four and you split to do a search. And then, you should have a radio on you, and never leave the room the nozzle is in. YOu go in together, find the fire together, fight the fire together, and leave together. Never, ever, ever split up and go off by yourself alone. ANd if you to split up two by two, make sure the other two know it and understand the plan. I had a situation right out of recruit school nine years ago where the Lt. that was with me left me in a motorcycle shop by mslef because he was low on air. Finally another LT., whom I respect to this day, happened to come up and asked me who was supposed to be with meand why I was left alone. Sure, I could see the door we came in, but it was far wnough away that had a collapse occured, I could have been really screwed and my new wife a widow. I was young and didn't think much of it then, I mean he was a Lt. he should know best right? But if that happened now, Lt. or not, he wuld get his rear thouroughly chewed by me, once as he tried to leave, and then later after the fire is done and we're back in service. This is a safety hazard that can no longer be tolerated in the fire service.Just like not wearing safety belts on the apparatus, a sensless act that could and can be prevented. Stay together, live together. That's just my two cents though.

    Oh, and I'm not saying the officer has to stay "on" the line per say, especially a truck officer as they don't have a line usually. But I am saying stay there with your guys, stay in constant contact, and don't spread yourself out far enough that a collapse has a greater chance of seperating you from them, or vice versa.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 11-29-2009 at 01:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    There is absolutley no situation, whatsoever oneshould leave the crew they entered with, unless there are four and you split to do a search. And then, you should have a radio on you, and never leave the room the nozzle is in. YOu go in together, find the fire together, fight the fire together, and leave together. Never, ever, ever split up and go off by yourself alone.
    Words that are highlighted should not be used in this job. I can think of quite a few people who are alive today because crews spilt up and operated independently to save a life. It is quite often, actually every fire in some places that a firefighter is left at a door while another goes in and searches an area. I can even think of one instance off the top of my head where a victim was pulled into a completely separate room totally away from the crew by doing this and a life saved. Never say never. Nothing is absolute.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    I had a situation right out of recruit school nine years ago where the Lt. that was with me left me in a motorcycle shop by mslef because he was low on air. .... But if that happened now, Lt. or not, he wuld get his rear thouroughly chewed by me, once as he tried to leave, and then later after the fire is done and we're back in service. This is a safety hazard that can no longer be tolerated in the fire service.
    So let me get this straight. You would "chew" him out for existing for being low on air? Wow. Simply wow. Think you might want to go back think about this and re-evaluate. Seriously.

    Perhaps just perhaps, YOU were at fault for leaving your officer who was doing the right thing by existing the structure because of low air? Could be that you were young then. Mulligan. But to state that you would chew them out? Yea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    Words that are highlighted should not be used in this job. I can think of quite a few people who are alive today because crews spilt up and operated independently to save a life. It is quite often, actually every fire in some places that a firefighter is left at a door while another goes in and searches an area. I can even think of one instance off the top of my head where a victim was pulled into a completely separate room totally away from the crew by doing this and a life saved. Never say never. Nothing is absolute.
    First off,I'll backup exactly what I just said. You may be correct, but there are just as many cases of the exact opposite that have happend. No victim's life is worth endangering your own more than it already is. If you go down without anyone to help, who's gonna save the victim then? Instead of rescuing victims they'll be rescuing you. Two in two out. Sometimes folks win the lottery too, but that doesn't mean it's not a waste of money. As you state, one stayed at the door, well, that's contact, whether by voice or sight, he knows where his partner is. Also, you state one instance where they were in total seperate rooms, compared to the hundreds of instances firefighters split and lost all contact with each other and died as a result. Think about it before you post.



    So let me get this straight. You would "chew" him out for existing for being low on air? Wow. Simply wow. Think you might want to go back think about this and re-evaluate. Seriously.

    Perhaps just perhaps, YOU were at fault for leaving your officer who was doing the right thing by existing the structure because of low air? Could be that you were young then. Mulligan. But to state that you would chew them out? Yea.
    Perhaps you need to re-read the post there pal before you go casting blame. Response to the first highlighted text, no, that is not what I said at all. Response to the second highlighted text, he left me, I was told to stay there, he was the officer, I was the probie. It was his duty to keep an eye on me. He wasn't so low he couldn't have gotten a replacement or another crew in there, again two in, two out. I didn't have to chew him out, the other Lt. did it. But had it happened today, I most certainly would have chewed him a new one. Please, learn how to read a post before you go trying to cut someone down on their post with your saved lives because of not doing what 's safe speech. I've heard it all before. My family and fellow firefighters come before any victims. And let me guess, you're gonna come back with some comment like, "Well maybe you shouldn't be a firefighter then, if you're gonna put your safety before a victim's". Well guess what buddy, that's what they teach now. You know why, because they found it to be very counter productive to have firefighters free lancing to be a hero and then having to save their butts later. Is it really worth it to save one life and chance destroying countless others left behind if you die? Again, what's the point of the one firefighter staying at the door while the other does the rescue? Is it that dangerous that you don't want to risk two firefighters? If so then you shouldn't risk even one. If you had to go into another room to rescue someone, why can't you take another person with you? At least have the nozzleman, if it's just you two, stay at the door of the room so he can stay in some sort of cantact with you. But for the love of God, never have walls or any other obstruction keeping you from voice and/or physical contact from your partner, that'sjust asking for trouble, hero or not.

    Again, try reading the post and understanding it before you go bashing someone, you totally misread my post and in turn said ignorant things inresponse. Otherwise, I would have in kind responded more civil like.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 11-29-2009 at 08:52 PM.

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    Well arent you just making one heck of a first impression!
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Sometimes folks win the lottery too, but that doesn't mean it's not a waste of money.

    Please, learn how to read a post before you go trying to cut someone down on their post with your saved lives because of not doing what 's safe speech. I've heard it all before.

    My family and fellow firefighters come before any victims. And let me guess, you're gonna come back with some comment like, "Well maybe you shouldn't be a firefighter then, if you're gonna put your safety before a victim's". Well guess what buddy, that's what they teach now. You know why, because they found it to be very counter productive to have firefighters free lancing to be a hero and then having to save their butts later. Is it really worth it to save one life and chance destroying countless others left behind if you die?
    I love how the fire service is turning into a "what can it do for me" kind of job. It is no longer about those we help. While I agree that safety is of upmost importance we must be unsafe at sometimes. The "we need to stay defensive because it is safe for us" is just wrong. We do no good if we are hurt or killed, but we must be willing to be aggressive when it is needed. We are letting statistics and suggestions run the way we do things. We need to man up, and do what is need to get the job done. Remember that old saying of Protecting LIFE and PROPERTY.

    Many departments are understaffed to even complete all the basics on the fireground. Let alone, have a whole group of people do that task. Teams must sometimes split to perform searches. In a perfect world we would have a whole RIT for each firefighter, but then agian in a perfect world our job wouldn't exsist. Stay safe, but don't pus out when it is time to do work.
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    Cool My Officer.....

    Huh, that's an easy one..... He's the I.C.

    But seriously, back to the point on what I interpret is the root of your question..... It really depends on the Crew and the experience of each Crew Member. Each Crew is only as strong as it's weakest Member.

    As far as my Crew goes..... I have total faith and trust in them and their capabilities so I'd have no problem sending them in without me. I know they'll communicate what they have and what they need. If it's a questionable situation where maybe we should go offensive/marginal then I'm right there next to them so that when I make the call that we're going from offensive to defensive it's well know.....

    We're usually assigned "Truck Work" and because my Crew has PDA's all I've gotta say is who's with me and where I'm going (depends on the assignment we're given).

    I hope that puts your original question into a different light and I've given you a couple of points to ponder.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    I love how the fire service is turning into a "what can it do for me" kind of job. It is no longer about those we help. While I agree that safety is of upmost importance we must be unsafe at sometimes. The "we need to stay defensive because it is safe for us" is just wrong. We do no good if we are hurt or killed, but we must be willing to be aggressive when it is needed. We are letting statistics and suggestions run the way we do things. We need to man up, and do what is need to get the job done. Remember that old saying of Protecting LIFE and PROPERTY.

    Many departments are understaffed to even complete all the basics on the fireground. Let alone, have a whole group of people do that task. Teams must sometimes split to perform searches. In a perfect world we would have a whole RIT for each firefighter, but then agian in a perfect world our job wouldn't exsist. Stay safe, but don't pus out when it is time to do work.
    So you're telling me that it's ok for firefighters to go off on their own in a building, not just splitting in a room, but totally split in a house? I hope you're not serious, and as for your first comment, I'm not being a what can it do for me attitude person nor am I condoning being defensive when an offensive attack is needed. But I am sticking to my point that firefighters should not be operating own their own in a fire building. Again, if you come up missing, the scene goes from rescuing the ones needing rescuing to searching for you, so that helps the victims how exactly? I don't think you read either one of my posts correctly, seeing how you got the idea I'm a defensive firefighting supporter or pussing out on doing the job.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 12-03-2009 at 10:08 AM.

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