Undercover Fire Apparatus

[Recelect]

What do people think of Undercover Fire apparatus - Chief vehicles, utilities etc? We seem to have "undercover" fire vehicles becoming more and more popular in my area, and Personally I think it is a bad idea. From my experience, It seems like most people who are interested in it are doing it because it "looks cooler". But, in my opinion, it is a department owned vehicle, and should be lit up with an overhead light bar; we don't sneak up on fires....

some say cost, but in my experience, putting together an undercover package can be more expensive due to the amount of lights, extra install time, and extra wiring costs it takes to place them all over the rest of the vehicle to give it sufficient lighting, whereas a lightbar serves a better all around purpose.

Some say they want to be more incognito when they have a take-home vehicle, I think it is because a light bar slows people down in front of you while driving because they think you are a cop..

I guess I feel like some departments put looks in front of safety, but I would like to be proved wrong. is there benefits? any good/bad experiences out there? opinions?

My opinion? Light it up on top! 360 degree visability and makes the vehicle more official.

Thanks!

BTW, our state law says "an overhead light capable of displaying warning 360 degrees shall be placed on the upper most practical point possible of the vehicle." So could this bring up legal issues in court if an "undercover" fire vehicle gets in a crash?

[dmleblanc]

I don't know....if we ever get a chief's vehicle or utility vehicle I'll let you know.

I guess you could say I have my take-home chief's vehicle is "undercover", then....

[nameless]

if emergency response is an ancillary function of the vehicle, I can see the benefit of what you called "under cover". If the car is going to be used by staff personnel who only respond to large incidents or some other unique incident, I don't see why they need something that looks like a chief's vehicle.

[charlie82]

You can always go with a marked slicktop. You increase fuel economy with interior mounted lights while maintaining visibility.

[...]

It's not like your are going to scare the fire away! It's not like you are the police scaring criminals away!

[MMFireBuff]

It's not like your are going to scare the fire away! It's not like you are the police scaring criminals away!

I agree.

Several of the police departments in this area of Kansas City run stealth cars. I would not call em that. They may have stealth graphics, but they still have the spotlight and strobes in the mirrors.

So calling them stealth or low profile just does not cut it.

[npfd801]

I think some around here are utilizing hidden lighting and no graphics to not draw attention to themselves when they're driving their chief vehicles for everything they do, which isn't always department related. I'm not passing judgement on that aspect, but pointing it out. When I get a take-home buggy for the week (we're volunteer) I always get looks when I stop by the store for a gallon of milk or something on the way home from the station...

[ctxffman]

The Austin Police Dept has dark charcoal grey Crown Vics with graphics of the same color. Can't see them during the day, but when the headlights hit them at night, it's all lite up. Actually looks good. Used mostly for highway enforcement.

Trying to hide the fact it's a police cruiser. Any person with one eye will know it's a police car thou.

[FIREMECH1]

I think some around here are utilizing hidden lighting and no graphics to not draw attention to themselves when they're driving their chief vehicles for everything they do, which isn't always department related. I'm not passing judgement on that aspect, but pointing it out. When I get a take-home buggy for the week (we're volunteer) I always get looks when I stop by the store for a gallon of milk or something on the way home from the station...

Our Asst. Chief(s) Tahoe is unmarked with hidden lights all around it. It is kept at the station, and makes all working fire calls. It is never taken home.

I made a beef about it not being recognizable as an official FD vehicle. I was told "Not to rock the boat". As far as Joe Blow is concerned, it's an unmarked police car when running lights and siren. And that could cause a few problems.

FM1

[Recelect]

Our Asst. Chief(s) Tahoe is unmarked with hidden lights all around it. It is kept at the station, and makes all working fire calls. It is never taken home.

I made a beef about it not being recognizable as an official FD vehicle. I was told "Not to rock the boat". As far as Joe Blow is concerned, it's an unmarked police car when running lights and siren. And that could cause a few problems.

FM1

Undercover is one thing I don't like, but not having graphics while still being utilized as normal response, that just seems rediculous. I get it for cop cars, even though I always pass "undercover" cop cars and say, hey, thats an undercover cop car. But for a fire vehicle, it should be well marked. Most of the "undercover" Fire vehicles in my city have extensive graphics packages.

as far as fuel economy, is there anyone who really notices a difference? let me tell you, when I drove department vehicles the last thing I thought of was the fuel economy I was getting, however one of the first things I would think (when running hot) is, do people see me?

[Mzanghetti]

They have their place, it can be useful if the vehicle is used by many different people and not all of them are fire officers or EMT's. I can recall one instance where a secretary was driving a marked vehicle and was flagged down for a medical emergency and had no idea what to do or how to help other than get on the radio and yell "Help!" That department went to only unmarked cars for admin personnel. Another incident involved a chief officer transporting his son and someone complaining about the chief using it for personal use, he paid for most of the gas he burned and was a volunteer available 24/7 so the district allowed personal use. He turned the vehicle back into the department and went to a POV, the town ended up paying him far more money than if he had just continued to use the town vehicle. He sought reimbursement for every dime he could for a year after he returned the vehicle and proved that it cost the town more than if he had kept the town truck. Undercover vehicles may work but it is not a cure-all for the primary issue which is that somebody won't like something they see and will complain about it. BTW, you may find that people will complain about the undercover vehicle because they think you are trying to hide something! I am not convinced they are worth the trouble or cost.

[charlie82]

Undercover is one thing I don't like, but not having graphics while still being utilized as normal response, that just seems rediculous. I get it for cop cars, even though I always pass "undercover" cop cars and say, hey, thats an undercover cop car. But for a fire vehicle, it should be well marked. Most of the "undercover" Fire vehicles in my city have extensive graphics packages.

as far as fuel economy, is there anyone who really notices a difference? let me tell you, when I drove department vehicles the last thing I thought of was the fuel economy I was getting, however one of the first things I would think (when running hot) is, do people see me?

You would be surprised at the fuel economy savings. And trust me with the newer interior lighting packages these days, you can be seen plenty well (sometimes better than just a lightbar). Dont believe me? Go to youtube and type SWPS.

[LFD2203]

As earlier stated, some of our vehicles (inspectors, investigators, staff chiefs) have marked vehicles with all interior light packages. Asst. Chief's have no markings and interior light packages. These vehicles do not normally make emergency runs. All other vehicles that make emergent responses are marked and have exterior lighting.
If the interior light packages keeps the staff chiefs from making emergency runs, I'm all for it.

[DeathValleyCap]

Bad idea all around except for admin staff. Our LEO will not allow an unmarked vehicle in an emergency scene unless it's an LEO they know personally. And even with all the wacker lights you put on the inside, nothing works as good as a good graphics package on the side and rear for alerting the HUA traveling motorist.

[Mzanghetti]

Bad idea all around except for admin staff. Our LEO will not allow an unmarked vehicle in an emergency scene unless it's an LEO they know personally. And even with all the wacker lights you put on the inside, nothing works as good as a good graphics package on the side and rear for alerting the HUA traveling motorist.

HUA?? Not familar with that acronymn!

[islandfire03]

HUA - Cranial vault up their posterior.

[Mzanghetti]

HUA - Cranial vault up their posterior.

OK, Got it!

[DeathValleyCap]

Thanks Island

[islandfire03]

Thanks Island

Back in a former life as a Seabee, we had a lot of college boy ensigns & luey's that suffered from this condition. Very familiar with the term. :-}

[CaptOldTimer]

The undercover cars were used by the arson squad and those came from the impound lot and were used. No light, sirens, radios, antennas, markings, or anything that look official. They would fit in most areas.

Plain Jane's!