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Thread: Tradition

  1. #1
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Default Tradition

    I have been thinking about this word and how it relates to the fire service. The conclusion I have reached is tradition is only a dirty word to those that either don't have any of their own, or simply don't understand what part tradition has played in the fire service.

    Tradition is not about tactics, strategy, or fireground activities. To me it is about rank, how we deal with LODD's, social aspects of the fire service, honor, pride, how we receive new apparatus, history, taking care of our own, and how we remember and honor those that came before us.

    Let me know what you think. Am I really far off here?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    FF-EMT Mzanghetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    how we remember and honor those that came before us.

    Let me know what you think. Am I really far off here?
    That one phrase says it all! If the people who came before you mean nothing; then tradition means nothing, this is where we of the fire service need to communicate better with both the people coming behind us and the communities we serve. If our service means nothing to them, how do you expect them to honor the ones who have gone before? No, I don't think you are very far off the mark at all. Most of our society today however is so far off the mark it isn't even funny!
    Mark Zanghetti
    FF-EMT
    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

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    Read a book called Pride and Ownership... its really good. Has a lot to do with tradition..

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    I concur. Tradition shouldn't be about tactics, the attack, or how one operates on the fire ground. In fact there is no place for tradition in the heat of battle.

    Tradition belongs on the parade ground, in ceremonies, and in how we conduct ourselves when not in the heat of battle.

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    FF-EMT Mzanghetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanojon View Post
    Read a book called Pride and Ownership... its really good. Has a lot to do with tradition..
    You are not the first person to mention that book to me, one of these days I am going to have to read it!
    Mark Zanghetti
    FF-EMT
    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Imagine if the military didn't have or mention the proud traditions that form the tenets of their very existence...

    There are those who would do that to our beloved fire service.. to abandon the traditions that form the very tenet of our foundations.

    I remember a "letter to the editor" in Firehouse magazine about ten or so years ago in which the writer mentioned that we shouldn't use "military ranks" like LT or Captain in the fire service... that we should replace them with "team leader" and "group leader", etc.

    There are those who advocate not entering a burning building at all; that we should fight all fires from the outside as not to endanger the firefighters. They also feel that there should be no attempt at a rescue if there are no cars in the driveway and not to fight a commercial fire after hours, as there is "no life risk".

    What these people don't realize is burnt out property does not generate tax revenue. Burnt businesses do not generate product or services, therefore, there are no jobs. Jobs lost dramatically affect the community both economically and emotionally.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't have a problem with the word tradition at all.

    How we honor past members is a tradition.

    But, for 124 years, we have followed the tradition of showing up to fires and putting them out. We still follow the tradition of using plain water. In my area, it's tradition to learn pumping while drafting from the ocean.

    Honestly, I don't have a problem using the word. And I don't understand why others do.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    In an effort to be a kinder, gentler poster as recommended by the webteam, I am going to sit this one out.

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    Forum Member MassFireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In an effort to be a kinder, gentler poster as recommended by the webteam, I am going to sit this one out.
    Thanks....

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In an effort to be a kinder, gentler poster as recommended by the webteam, I am going to sit this one out.
    This is the kind ofm post by you that just outright ****es me off. Why, if you have not a damn thing to add, do you have to post to say you are not going to post. JUST DON'T FREAKING POST. We already know you hate tradition, we already know you want to remodel the interior fire service into the outstanding (in the front yard) fire service. If you have nothing to add just walk away.

    Two excellent posts where even I said they were excellent and then back to your same old nonsense.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 10-16-2009 at 12:04 AM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    I agree, a lot of people that trash the traditions do not understand them or is the kind of person that thinks anything "new" has to be the best way of doing something.


    Although certain "traditions" may need to be revamped or left behind. Such as the videos of drunken wet downs that look like a bunch of frat boys on spring break Sometimes the traditions need to catch up to the present or be left behind, but for the most part that is a natural evolution.

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    Traditions such as honoring those who have gone before, LODD, christening a new engine, and others hopefully will always be a part of the fireservice. Some, such as "It isn't empty until we say it is" can and have led to LODD and to injuries. Honoring and remembering the past, while being receptive to the future is what makes a well rounded and progressive fire dept IMO.

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    Tradition is as important as learning new ways to handle todays emergencies. Without tradition we will soon forget our past. To forget our past and not remember all the efforts by so many men and women would be a great injustice to their memory and to the fire service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In an effort to be a kinder, gentler poster as recommended by the webteam, I am going to sit this one out.
    Got to love censorship!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Got to love censorship!!!
    The webteam provides a free service that you choose to use. If you don't like the terms, you can always go to another forum.

    And to quote your double standard and complete switch of position I quote the post you made at the same time in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It isn't his locker, the city lets him use it.
    It's not our Forum, the WebTeam lets us use it.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 10-16-2009 at 08:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I agree, a lot of people that trash the traditions do not understand them or is the kind of person that thinks anything "new" has to be the best way of doing something.


    Although certain "traditions" may need to be revamped or left behind. Such as the videos of drunken wet downs that look like a bunch of frat boys on spring break Sometimes the traditions need to catch up to the present or be left behind, but for the most part that is a natural evolution.
    It is interesting how some think selective traditions must go. Personally, I think the biggest reason some people use "tradition" on the fire ground is they are set in their ways and are comfortable with the old way. Personally, tradition does not belong on the fire ground. You have to use the latest and greatest techniques as well as the latest and greatest tools.

    Used to be we used straight water on the fires, now we add foam. Used to be guys fought fires in jeans and jackets, now we have PPE. Used to be you went into a fire blind, now we have TICs. You get the idea. One should not resist change in the name of tradition, nor should they advocate change for the latest fad or gadget. Change has to be thought out logically and with reason. Off the fire ground and on the parade ground is the proper place for tradition.

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    Tradition is a wonderful thing when referring to the ceremonial aspects of the fire service.

    Parades, LODD ceremonies and the like are rich in tradition and in those areas, carrying on certain traditions is critical. In fact, I'm probably the most traditional man on my current department when it comes to the ceremonial side of the fire service.

    Other traditions such as the importance of the senior man are far less important. In today's society when learning can be accomplished via technology, a young firefighter can pick up far more knowledge in a short period of time when compared to the past, and very often can be at the same level as a senior firefighter in a fairly short period of time.

    Certain traditions, such as the new man or probabtionary firefighter being tretaed as a second class citizen in some places needs to go. A new firefighter should be treated with the same level of respect and dignity as a 20 year veteren. To say they have to earn thier place is a tradition who's time has passed.

    Finally, tradition has absolutely no place on the fireground. How things were done in the past is simply that ... how they were done in the past. As a service, many members have problems moving on into new techniques and recoginizing that the past is the past and we need to operate in the present and the future.

    To say that we disrespect the past members by adopting new operational techniques is simply rubbish. Buildings change. Fires change. Staffing change. Equipment changes. And the expectations of the workforce in terms of the risk they will take changes.

    That is my issue with tradition in the fire service.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-16-2009 at 09:45 AM.

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    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    FF-EMT Mzanghetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Tradition is a wonderful thing when referring to the ceremonial aspects of the fire service.

    Parades, LODD ceremonies and the like are rich in tradition and in those areas, carrying on certain traditions is critical. In fact, I'm probably the most traditional man on my current department when it comes to the ceremonial side of the fire service.

    Other traditions such as the importance of the senior man are far less important. In today's society when learning can be accomplished via technology, a young firefighter can pick up far more knowledge in a short period of time when compared to the past, and very often can be at the same level as a senior firefighter in a fairly short period of time.

    Certain traditions, such as the new man or probabtionary firefighter being tretaed as a second class citizen in some places needs to go. A new firefighter should be treated with the same level of respect and dignity as a 20 year veteran. To say they have to earn thier place is a tradition who's time has passed.

    Finally, tradition has absolutely no place on the fireground. How things were done in the past is simply that ... how they were done in the past. As a service, many members have problems moving on into new techniques and recoginizing that the past is the past and we need to operate in the present and the future.

    To say that we disrespect the past members by adopting new operational techniques is simply rubbish. Buildings change. Fires change. Staffing change. Equipment changes. And the expectations of the workforce in terms of the risk they will take changes.

    That is my issue with tradition in the fire service.
    You are kidding about the parts of your comment that I put in bold right? To say that the experience of the senior man is a tradition that needs to go is foolish. I depend on the experience of the senior men because I know that my inexperience may get me or someone else killed! I have all kinds of certifications but am not stupid enough to think I know it all and look to the experience of others to fill in the blanks and gaps in my knowledge. (there are many things we deal with that you can't learn in classes)

    A new firefighter who is overconfident in his knowledge and training is the most dangerous person on the fireground, that is why he needs to prove he can do the job to the more experienced people that work with him. To say that he deserves the same respect as the most senior men simply because they do the same job is stupidity at best.

    There are many reasons for tradition and sometimes you may not like them but they are neccesary.
    Mark Zanghetti
    FF-EMT
    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

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    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzanghetti View Post
    You are kidding about the parts of your comment that I put in bold right?

    IAFF

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