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  1. #1
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    Default Help finding good sources for project on nozzles?

    Hey all, well I have to do a final project for my Pump Operations class and our group has chosen the old combo vs. smoothbore, pro/con, differences topic. I have found all kinds of discussions on the topic but I need to find some published, academic material to reference for the paper. Anyone know any good books that they would recommend? Would libraries carry books on this material? I plan on asking my teacher next week but thought I'd get some opinions here since this forum has always produced great help for my questions.

    Thanks guys.


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    Try Dave Fornell's book "Fire Stream Management".

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    what information are you looking for specifically? Do you want technical data on nozzles so you can use to compare and contrast them? or are you looking for someone else who touched on this topic so you can regurgitate what they wrote?


    TFT's website has a lot of data on the performance of their nozzles. This includes reaction force at various flows and flow at various nozzle pressures for automatic nozzles. I can't remember if they have much on smooth bores.

    It was either FE or FH who had an article about kinking with smoothbores and auto fogs and data on how the kinks effected flow. This was all done in a controlled setting. Very good article, forget who wrote it though. Whoever it was, he did a very good job.

    With that information you should be able to reach your own conclusions and present the pros and cons of the two types of nozzzles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim54 View Post
    Try Dave Fornell's book "Fire Stream Management".
    Having met and spent time with the author, I hope the book was ghost written.

    Seriously.

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    The FDNY's in-house publication "WNYF" has published boatloads of articles on various nozzles over the years.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Why not actually do a real project? Original research is always going to be more productive and you'll learn more. Forget cribbing out of the encyclopedia.

    Borrow a portable electronic flow meter (the Akron regional reps certainly have them). Line up some nozzles (new and older). Then flow some water. Good bet you'll find significant differences from the PR papers. In particular poorly maintained automatics flow that is much lower than rating.

    Then give us a report on what you found.

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    Search article archives in fire-engineering magazine website for nozzle testing, nozzles etc.

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    "Borrow a portable electronic flow meter (the Akron regional reps certainly have them). Line up some nozzles (new and older). Then flow some water. Good bet you'll find significant differences from the PR papers. In particular poorly maintained automatics flow that is much lower than rating."

    Thats good advice. regarding the TFT info, i have found over and over their flow figures in their literature may be a bit inflated.

    Good luck.

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    Watch this concerning flows.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kuJ3BInbMI

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedic20 View Post
    "Borrow a portable electronic flow meter (the Akron regional reps certainly have them). Line up some nozzles (new and older). Then flow some water. Good bet you'll find significant differences from the PR papers. In particular poorly maintained automatics flow that is much lower than rating."

    Thats good advice. regarding the TFT info, i have found over and over their flow figures in their literature may be a bit inflated.

    Good luck.
    I personally use the Elkhart/fire research and several in line pressure guages when I test. There are alot of small regional magazines where folks tested flows and reaction forces. Give me your e-mail and I will send you the article I wrote 10 years ago. Fornells book is good and I have it over my desk as we speak.

    getasupply@gmail.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Having met and spent time with the author, I hope the book was ghost written.

    Seriously.
    I have known and taught with Dave Fornell for over 10 years. He is very well versed in fire streams, nozzles and hose.

    My guess is he didn't support your idea so you have to try and discredit him.
    s
    By the way...have you read his book? If not then perhaps you should before you shoot off your mouth.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 10-22-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have known and taught with Dave Fornell for over 10 years. He is very well versed in fire streams, nozzles and hose.

    My guess is he didn't support your idea so you have to try and discredit him.
    s
    By the way...have you read his book? If not then perhaps you should before you shoot off your mouth.
    Keep guessing, you are not even close.

    Also, I don't need your permission to post here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Why not actually do a real project? Original research is always going to be more productive and you'll learn more. Forget cribbing out of the encyclopedia.

    Borrow a portable electronic flow meter (the Akron regional reps certainly have them). Line up some nozzles (new and older). Then flow some water. Good bet you'll find significant differences from the PR papers. In particular poorly maintained automatics flow that is much lower than rating.

    Then give us a report on what you found.
    Best suggestion yet.

    And be ready for honest results. When we did ours with the Arkon salesman, his "factual" statements about flows from his nozzles and the TFT's we had were found to be a bit grey. He was really surprised when we found our TFT's were outflowing some of his nozzles. Published literature is nice, but factual testing is better.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Keep guessing, you are not even close.

    Also, I don't need your permission to post here.
    I never said you needed my permission to do anything. Please do continue sounding off on a book it appears you haven't read.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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    Andrew Fredericks (RIP) article "tiny drops of water" from Fire Engineering magazine (not sure of the issue just punch in his name it will come up).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I never said you needed my permission to do anything. Please do continue sounding off on a book it appears you haven't read.
    Those who do not have reading comprehension problems realize I was commenting on the author, not the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Those who do not have reading comprehension problems realize I was commenting on the author, not the book.

    your comment on the author is also a commentary on the book, if you hope it was ghost written an intelligent person would reason that you believe is views on water streams and nozzles to be incorrect.

    Fyredup aparently holds the book in high regard, and appears to be trying to get you to say what your problem is with the author and book.

    Get it?

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    I must say that I've held Fornell's book in pretty high regard, it's been an decent reference for most classes on fire streams. Andy Fredrick's articles from Fire Engineering were also very good as was noted. Also, some follow ups to Fredricks works by Jerry Tracy (?) and another author in Fire Engineering were good as well. This delved into measuring reaction force, gallons that landed on target, etc.

    I assume that if your doing a paper you need to present a theory and then try and prove or disprove it? Hence, doing all your own tests with no outside resources is not an option.

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    fornells book has been the best one i've read.... might want to borrow a copy, I believe it is out of publication.

    Amazon lists it at $535. find a friend and borrow it, study it digently.\

    then go out with flow meters, big style fish scales (old school meathod to measure the rf), and pitot guages. write your report and tell us your findings.

    PM me too i've got some references to send you.
    Originally Posted by madden01
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  20. #20
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    yeah I cant seem to find David Fornell's book anywhere online. Imma try to order it through a book store I just hope it doesnt take to long to arrive.

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