Backdraft question

[Madigad]

...if you were to pull up to a single family residence showing signs of possible backdraft (no flame, puffing smoke, etc) and only have 3 people on the engine for staffing and the next in engine 20 minutes out, there's not enough people to safely vertical ventilate and get ready to attack the fire...what do you do? Wait for the next in ? In 20 minutes what will happen? Will it self vent?

[ffnj40]

Brother you are going to get a whole lot of differing opinions here so just take it all.

Basicly this situation sucks. Under the premiss (I know I spelled that wrong!) of life safty you have two problems here regardless of where the backdraft condition is located in the structure ( 2nd fl, 1st fl, front, or rear). They are the FF's and any people in the home.

Basicly you have to vent. I know it sucks, but under the conditions present horizontal ventilation must be done here. To wait 20 min's is not an option here.

Now I know this goes against everything most of us have read and studied, but with the manpower here you are left with few options.

Establish a water supply (If the next Eng is 20 min's out you will neeed it) Pull your line and place it in a safe place on the outside of the home. Charge it. Now have a member with a long hook, (I would go with one longer than 6 feet ) off to the side of the window where the backdraft is present( make sure he is upwind.) Have this FF break the window(of course at it's highest point). As this FF breaks the window open the nozzle and direct the stream into the ceiling area for 1 to 2 min's. This should cool the atmosphere getting rid of the backdraft condition so interior operation can begin. If the backdraft condition is on the 2nd fl use a ground ladder to take out the window.

If a backdraft exists the odds of a person being alive in that area is zero, so using an outside stream is exceptable because you the FF are the life hazard.

Remember too, just because a backdraft is present in one area does not mean it is present throughout the building, so once the present danger is gone an interior attack is needed along with search etc.

This is a quick answer of how I would do things with a 3 man Eng Company. I feel this way will keep my men the safest and I can still begin extingishment and rescue efforts, .

[captaincvfd]

Just Beware
We did one a few years ago where we vented The second floor before entry on the first and we had several rooms that did not vent due to closed doors. And had enough force to get our attention.
At This fire the Building had hidden spaces that after ventilation and free burning Backdrafted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM7pRyEJqes

[GTRider245]

Brother you are going to get a whole lot of differing opinions here so just take it all.

Basicly this situation sucks. Under the premiss (I know I spelled that wrong!) of life safty you have two problems here regardless of where the backdraft condition is located in the structure ( 2nd fl, 1st fl, front, or rear). They are the FF's and any people in the home.

Basicly you have to vent. I know it sucks, but under the conditions present horizontal ventilation must be done here. To wait 20 min's is not an option here.

Now I know this goes against everything most of us have read and studied, but with the manpower here you are left with few options.

Establish a water supply (If the next Eng is 20 min's out you will neeed it) Pull your line and place it in a safe place on the outside of the home. Charge it. Now have a member with a long hook, (I would go with one longer than 6 feet ) off to the side of the window where the backdraft is present( make sure he is upwind.) Have this FF break the window(of course at it's highest point). As this FF breaks the window open the nozzle and direct the stream into the ceiling area for 1 to 2 min's. This should cool the atmosphere getting rid of the backdraft condition so interior operation can begin. If the backdraft condition is on the 2nd fl use a ground ladder to take out the window.

If a backdraft exists the odds of a person being alive in that area is zero, so using an outside stream is exceptable because you the FF are the life hazard.

Remember too, just because a backdraft is present in one area does not mean it is present throughout the building, so once the present danger is gone an interior attack is needed along with search etc.

This is a quick answer of how I would do things with a 3 man Eng Company. I feel this way will keep my men the safest and I can still begin extingishment and rescue efforts, .

This is pretty much how I would handle the situation as well. It is not ideal, but given the circumstances it is needed.

[MemphisE34a]

In 20 minutes what will happen? Will it self vent?

Well I wouldn't stand around and wait to find out.

Most likely, if I wanted ventilation before making entry I would not go to the roof, but take out windows with a pike pole before entering.

Having said that, most firefighters will go an entire career without ever seeing a true structure wide backdraft. They are not nearly as routine as some people would like you to believe.

[L-Webb]

As stated before vent the window and hit the ceiling, you should be able to here the conversion. You will get better results if you use a narrow fog, but thats up to how your dept does things. Above all else stay safe..

[Gfd202]

I would defiantly get the structure vented in a safe manner. The longer you wait the more pressure will build up and who know what will happen when you go to do it 20min later. The longer you wait the bigger the fire gets and then it could vent itself when you least expect it and you could be at the wrong place and the wrong time when goes. Life safety is your main concern. If there is life in the structure then after your safety is covered then next is the civilian’s safety, and property. There could be a kid in the other side of the structure that wouldn’t be affected by the back draft but will be affected by the smoke building up. 20min is way too long. I would defiantly vent and cool with a hose stream and then go in a do your job. I defiantly wouldn’t want to be the guy standing out in the front yard playing with your thumbs when the owners show up 15min later and wonder why you are just standing there and not doing anything and they say they know someone is inside. Like they say we walk where the devil dances and when people are running out we are running in. Just make sure your crew is doing the operations in a safe manner.

[Firetacoma1]

Straight stream through the window from a distance. No need to be that close breaking it with a pike pole.

Then an aggressive interior attack as justified.

[firefightinirish217]

I keep reading people's posts talking about not letting the fire get bigger, I'm very confused on this. Everything I've ever read or seen about backdrafts explains that there is little fire before ventilation occurs, infact, my understanding on backdraft is that improper ventilation is what causes explosive acceleration and fire spread, because of the sudden introduction of oxygen filled are. Maybe I read it wrong, but the IFSTA manual clearly states that backdraft is caused by a fire that has used up all/most available oxygen in a compartment/room and smolders and builds up heat. The actual backdraft occurs when clean, oxygen filled air is suddenly let into the compartment before proper vertical ventilation can occur. Even if you do vertical ventilation first, it will take a minute for the fire to build, as opposed to horizontal ventilation which will cause an "explosion" of fire. Why don't you set up for entry before you ventilate horizontally. Send two up to ventilate and have the officer man the hose. Have the two on the roof come down and join the officer before making entry, this will prevent the huge fire spread caused by improper ventilation, and give anyone inside a chance at life, maybe. But it beats causing explosive fire spread, there are ways of ventilating quickly as well. One way we learned of is with a battery operated reciprocatring saw with a demolition blade and spare blades in a pouch your pocket just case, and a pick head axe for scoring a starting point. If you want to know the technique feel free to PM me, I'll be glad to share it with you. That is the fastest and easiest way we found to ventilate, chainsaws are heavy, cumbersome, and prone to malfuntions. But I do believe this to be a safer and more effective way than just charging in like a bull because second due is 20 min. out. The fire is not going to spread faster than the crew can get off the roof and man the attack line if proper ventilation is done.

[GTRider245]

I keep reading people's posts talking about not letting the fire get bigger, I'm very confused on this. Everything I've ever read or seen about backdrafts explains that there is little fire before ventilation occurs, infact, my understanding on backdraft is that improper ventilation is what causes explosive acceleration and fire spread, because of the sudden introduction of oxygen filled are. Maybe I read it wrong, but the IFSTA manual clearly states that backdraft is caused by a fire that has used up all/most available oxygen in a compartment/room and smolders and builds up heat. The actual backdraft occurs when clean, oxygen filled air is suddenly let into the compartment before proper vertical ventilation can occur. Even if you do vertical ventilation first, it will take a minute for the fire to build, as opposed to horizontal ventilation which will cause an "explosion" of fire..

Says who?

Why don't you set up for entry before you ventilate horizontally. Send two up to ventilate and have the officer man the hose. Have the two on the roof come down and join the officer before making entry, this will prevent the huge fire spread caused by improper ventilation, and give anyone inside a chance at life, maybe. But it beats causing explosive fire spread,.

I am not sending guys to the roof with a total crew of three.

there are ways of ventilating quickly as well. One way we learned of is with a battery operated reciprocatring saw with a demolition blade and spare blades in a pouch your pocket just case, and a pick head axe for scoring a starting point. If you want to know the technique feel free to PM me, I'll be glad to share it with you. That is the fastest and easiest way we found to ventilate, chainsaws are heavy, cumbersome, and prone to malfuntions..

Are you just qouting the book or do you really have any idea what youre talking about? MY chainsaws crank and run just fine, and are sharp. They would cut circles around you and your recip. saw.

But I do believe this to be a safer and more effective way than just charging in like a bull because second due is 20 min. out. .

Did you read any of the above posts? I dont see where anyone suggested that.

The fire is not going to spread faster than the crew can get off the roof and man the attack line if proper ventilation is done.

How do you know?

[mikeyboy411]

Lemme try this again.....

I personally saw this on a F/S.....

We pulled-up to a SFD, Type 5 const, pressurized smoke with little to no flames visible. We tried the front door and it was locked; thank God.

We reported to our Captain what we saw as he came back from his 360, and he directed us to pull the Line to the side of the house. He picked-up a B.A.R. (Big *** Rock) and threw it through the front window which sent pressurized flame and heat outside. The flames/fire increased only for a few seconds until we opened the bale and started to cool the ceiling and the room. Once the majority of the fire in the Living Room was knocked-down we advanced and knocked-down the rest of the fire in that area. We went back out and hit the fire in the bedroom connected to the Living Room. By this time our 2nd Due Engine was on scene and supplied us with water. We kept on knocking the fire down from the interior as we got the appropriate Manpower.

I'm not saying to use this tactic, I'm simply telling what I've seen.....

With a 3 Person Engine Company, be prepared to do a lot of "Outside Firefighting" unless every F/S you have has a confirmed rescue. Fire can be extinguished from the outside, but it takes practice and the correct conditions need to be in place. I've never read or seen anything that says you can't take a fire and knock it down from the exterior and then if safe, advance in to complete "Overhaul." It's gonna depend really on how your Department works.

If it were my Career Dept. it's a simple call..... 2 to the roof, 2 at the door with the Line. We've worked on this a lot though and I know the limits of my Guys.

Here's a challenge to you..... Sit down with your senior FFs, Engineers (or whatever your Department refers to them as), C.Os. (again, however your Department refers to them) and invite some of the competant "Brass" that you know will give you sound advice. Run this scenario by them and see what they'd come up with. Then take that advice and run it on the Training Ground. Set your time checks, time intervals to 20 mins. and see what "chores" or "work" you and your Crew can do in 20 mins. Once you've established that then "make that work perfect." Once that work is perfected, then increase the work you do in that time frame. So on and so on..... You'll find that with a well-oiled Crew this situation really is not that scary.

In my recalled story, we were running a 3 Man Engine and our next Due was at a similar time frame so I can sympothize with ya..... It sucks, it's a feeling of "hopelessness." But without that vital communication and without "training for the worst and hoping for the best" type of mentality you won't know exactly what your capable of with your Manpower. This night was a real "eye opener" for me and that's when I truly learned that phrase "think outside of the Box."

Well, it's just a few points to ponder..... Stay safe and for Heaven's Sake Smile.....

[firefightinirish217]

Are you just qouting the book or do you really have any idea what youre talking about? MY chainsaws crank and run just fine, and are sharp. They would cut circles around you and your recip. saw.

Nah, I don't know crap, I was just a paid firefighter for 7 years before going into the military and a volunter for 3 before that. What book are you talking about??? As for you little chainsaw comment, I never said they don't crank, but they do go down more than a recip. saw.This is how we ventilated buildings. So, your cahinsaw will cut through metal, without the cahin braking or dulling quickly? And speed, I'll take your bet and raise you 50, because we've beat them before and will beat them again. Plus, it's lighter. Aparently you have some problem with me,judging from the tone of your past two responses to me, so why don't you PM me and tell me what it is and we can settle this crap.

How do you know?

Back at ya bub, you seen one either???

[firefightinirish217]

Says who?

Well, most of what I posted is from the IFSTA manual. As for says who about exactly what, why don't you just specify.

[GTRider245]

Nah, I don't know crap, I was just a paid firefighter for 7 years before going into the military and a volunter for 3 before that. What book are you talking about??? As for you little chainsaw comment, I never said they don't crank, but they do go down more than a recip. saw.This is how we ventilated buildings.

I would like to know more about it. Seriously. Video maybe?

So, your cahinsaw will cut through metal, without the cahin braking or dulling quickly?

I have no doubt it wont, but neither will your recip. saw with a wood blade. Different tools for different jobs.

Aparently you have some problem with me,judging from the tone of your past two responses to me, so why don't you PM me and tell me what it is and we can settle this crap.

No sir, not at all. I just call things like I see them.

Back at ya bub, you seen one either???

Nope, and hope I never do. I am not claiming to have the perfect answer though.

[PaladinKnight]

Incident: Single Family Residential Structure
Occupants Inside: Unknown



3 guys arrive on a truck. - 2nd Crew in 20 minutes.

Condition - Backdraft; Imminent

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ask these 3 questions:

What is going to happen in the next 20-25 minutes if we do nothing?

What can we do in the next 20-25 minutes that will make this better?

What can we do in the next 20-25 minutes that can really screw this up.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Then ask this question: How good is my crew?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the certainty.

If you do nothing, the conditions (heat) will cause ventilation... but uncontrolled. Will that happen it the next 20-25 minutes? Probably.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Examine Tactical Issues:

What is the water supply?

Did you grab that hydrant or do you just have your booster? Most of the time, you're in with what you carry.

Example: Water Supply = 1000 Gallon Booster Tank

---------------------------------------------------------------
Examine Tactical Choices

Tactic A: Ventilate Window, Spray Water into room to cool and reduce threat

or

Tactic B: Ventilate Roof, Spray water / ventilate and reduce threat

or

Tactic C: RESCUE/RECOVERY

------------------------------------------------------------
Water Supply:
1000 gallons * 90% = 900 gallons / 100 gpm = Time elapsed = 9 minutes

How long before new water arrives.... 8 to 10 minutes.

OK, let's talk about the 90% factor... you really want to dry your pump and have nothing left in the worse case?


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Tactical Limitations:
Interior Attack not possible given circumstances; limited ability to sustain attack due to limited manpower and water supply.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember This: RISK/BENEFIT

What do I have to risk, and for what benefit?

If you do your job right, you will not risk very much, since you do not have much to play with.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a million things that you can do wrong, or that can go wrong without you even thinking about it.

In reality, you have a slim chance of doing everything right.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was impressed with every backdraft I ever worked. Some will tell you BACKDRAFT is a rare occurence.

It just takes one and you better know it when you see it.


You have to be consistant no matter what operation you are conducting. You take care of yourself first... every else comes after that.

[firefightinirish217]

I would like to know more about it. Seriously. Video maybe?

First let me say, sorry for being a bit, uh, snappy I guess. Been in Iraq for almost a year, kinda edgy right now. As for a video, I'm not there anymore, but if you're ever up around Dalton, GA I'm sure they'll be happy to show you how th operation is done.

I have no doubt it wont, but neither will your recip. saw with a wood blade. Different tools for different jobs.

THe only blades we carry for the recip. is demolition blades, cuts through almost anything.

No sir, not at all. I just call things like I see them.

Again, sorry bout snapping at you brother, just tired and ready to go home.

Nope, and hope I never do. I am not claiming to have the perfect answer though.

I hope you never do also. And I hope, if all works out as planned, that when I get out and return to firefighting, I never see one either. The dang things scare the heck outta me.

[GTRider245]

It is all good brother. Stay safe over there.

[SmokeyDaBear1]

Brother you are going to get a whole lot of differing opinions here so just take it all.

Basicly this situation sucks. Under the premiss (I know I spelled that wrong!) of life safty you have two problems here regardless of where the backdraft condition is located in the structure ( 2nd fl, 1st fl, front, or rear). They are the FF's and any people in the home.

Basicly you have to vent. I know it sucks, but under the conditions present horizontal ventilation must be done here. To wait 20 min's is not an option here.

Now I know this goes against everything most of us have read and studied, but with the manpower here you are left with few options.

Establish a water supply (If the next Eng is 20 min's out you will neeed it) Pull your line and place it in a safe place on the outside of the home. Charge it. Now have a member with a long hook, (I would go with one longer than 6 feet ) off to the side of the window where the backdraft is present( make sure he is upwind.) Have this FF break the window(of course at it's highest point). As this FF breaks the window open the nozzle and direct the stream into the ceiling area for 1 to 2 min's. This should cool the atmosphere getting rid of the backdraft condition so interior operation can begin. If the backdraft condition is on the 2nd fl use a ground ladder to take out the window.

If a backdraft exists the odds of a person being alive in that area is zero, so using an outside stream is exceptable because you the FF are the life hazard.

Remember too, just because a backdraft is present in one area does not mean it is present throughout the building, so once the present danger is gone an interior attack is needed along with search etc.

This is a quick answer of how I would do things with a 3 man Eng Company. I feel this way will keep my men the safest and I can still begin extingishment and rescue efforts, .

Very well put and the best option I think that most everyone here can agree on this. Thank you
Become Firefighter

[FireEMT712]

I keep reading people's posts talking about not letting the fire get bigger, I'm very confused on this. Everything I've ever read or seen about backdrafts explains that there is little fire before ventilation occurs, infact, my understanding on backdraft is that improper ventilation is what causes explosive acceleration and fire spread, because of the sudden introduction of oxygen filled are. Maybe I read it wrong, but the IFSTA manual clearly states that backdraft is caused by a fire that has used up all/most available oxygen in a compartment/room and smolders and builds up heat. The actual backdraft occurs when clean, oxygen filled air is suddenly let into the compartment before proper vertical ventilation can occur. Even if you do vertical ventilation first, it will take a minute for the fire to build, as opposed to horizontal ventilation which will cause an "explosion" of fire. Why don't you set up for entry before you ventilate horizontally. Send two up to ventilate and have the officer man the hose. Have the two on the roof come down and join the officer before making entry, this will prevent the huge fire spread caused by improper ventilation, and give anyone inside a chance at life, maybe. But it beats causing explosive fire spread, there are ways of ventilating quickly as well. One way we learned of is with a battery operated reciprocatring saw with a demolition blade and spare blades in a pouch your pocket just case, and a pick head axe for scoring a starting point. If you want to know the technique feel free to PM me, I'll be glad to share it with you. That is the fastest and easiest way we found to ventilate, chainsaws are heavy, cumbersome, and prone to malfuntions. But I do believe this to be a safer and more effective way than just charging in like a bull because second due is 20 min. out. The fire is not going to spread faster than the crew can get off the roof and man the attack line if proper ventilation is done.

you do have a few moments before the actual backdraft but you also dont know where the fire originated so pike pole to window is safer and straight stream to break window from distance is even better. Good thinking though!

[nameless]

interesting idea for venting with a sawzall, although I don't buy that it's quicker. I'm not even sure if it would work on the older houses with planks for the roof deck and sometimes several layers of shingles. Even the chainsaw and cut off saw can have some issues on the real think ones.