1. #1
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    Default Strongest Built Body in the Industry

    This would be considered a "BOLD" statement made by a manufacturer considering the other companies they are associated with. This statement was made by Crimson in the October 20th addition of Fire Engineering, Product Center Newsletter. It would have been interesting if they had explained how this body construction was achieved. What ever happened to companies like Pierce, Seagrave, Sutphen, Central States, KME, E-One, ALF and many others companies that have been in business over many more years then Crimson. Are there bodies falling apart or does the customers know the product they are buying. Can anyone dispute this statement describing body construction compaired to Crimson.

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    I took it as an advertising campaign. There are really too many variables to name the "strongest," "toughest," "longest-lasting" fire service body.

    First, there are different materials: aluminum, stainless, composite, and galvaneal.

    Second, there are variations of each of these materials. There many grades of stainless and different thicknesses of aluminum.

    Third, the weak link in any construction is usually the connectors. So while stainless is considered tougher, it is usually bolted.

    Fourth, how is the sub-structure built and attached to the apparatus frame?

    It is what it is: Advertising and marketing.

    From a strength standpoint, I do like the triangular design that Crimson uses for framing. Other trucks on my list of "tough" bodies would include Rosenbauer General Division, and Seagrave.

    C6

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    Unless you can prove it isn't, then it would be "FACT", and not "BOLD".
    Of the companies you have listed, we haven't had 3 of them (pierce, ALF, Seagrave). The Crimsons we have compared to the others that are on the list we do have, I believe the Crimsons are better made.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    I agree with Command when it's basically marketing effort, they're not going to say they're the worst obviously, but saying they're the best, needs some proof.

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    Looked at only 2 Crimsons a few months ago. Nice, but nothing great.
    Looked at a 3 year old Ferrara last night. Well built, solid work, we'd place it well over Crimson.

    I'm betting the big P marketing machine will be reacting soon.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Any forum members out there bold enough to rank what they think is the strongest body to the least strong body? If you choose to do so please observe the following....

    1. Personal hands-on knowledge of the builders quality and capability.
    2. Only compare apparatus 5 years old or newer as we all know quality can fluctuate.
    3. Body construction only, not ladders, or chassis
    4. I know there are a lot of variables out there, but this isn't for NASA.

    Let me try to name everyone I can think of. Just throwing out names, NOT ranking them.

    ALF, KME, Ahrens-Fox, Maxim (the new), Seagrave, Pierce, Ferrara, Sutphen, Smeal, 4Guys, Custom Fire, Toyne, Alexis, E-One, Rosenbauer General, Rosenbauer Central, Plastisol, Darley, Crimson, GimaexUSA, SVI, EVI, Hackney, PL Custom, Precision, Summit, sure there is more...

    Anyone ready to throw down their opinion?
    Last edited by GFPD2005; 10-28-2009 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Unless you can prove it isn't, then it would be "FACT", and not "BOLD"....

    FM1
    BS. Empty headed marketing blather unless can demonstrate that, by some measure or other, however relevant or meaningless, that their statements are true.

    For example consider case of rollover "strenght". No bent body is going to provide the rollover strength and cab protection of a welded extruded body.

    Or perhaps some MBA Marketing dimwit might compare the tensile strength of various metal. Irrelevant information.

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    Default Extruded Aluminum Bodies

    I'd agree the extruded aluminum is the strongest body. My department has Pierce, E-One and Ferrara. Pierce uses an 1/8" formed body. The E-One and Ferrara have a 3/16" extruded body and seem far more rugged than the Pierce. The Ferrara also uses alot of diagonal bracing and is the only company I've seen crash test the body. We did look at the Crimson aluminum body. It looked stronger than Pierce but we thought Pierce and Ferrara built a better unit. We looked at Smeal. They also have an 1/8" body like Pierce but didn't appear as well made either. What we liked about Smeal was their ladder. This also helped Ferrara stand out since their ladders are made by them and we'll be looking for a ladder soon, but this isn't a ladder thread. In the world of aluminum bodies, so far, the Ferrara has my vote. I don't know enough about stainless steel bodies to compare, but Ferrara's looked good.

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    Extruded aluminum is definitely the most popular body in my corner of the world.

    I will reference an old building construction lesson that "a structure is only as strong as its connectors." The same goes for apparatus body. You can have a body frame of steel I-beams, but if its held together by 1/8" pop rivets, then you defeat the purpose.

    I rolled under a new "S" demo pumper recently, and the first thing I noticed was a broken weld on the sub-frame. We have brand "P" in our fleet, and there have been some stress cracks around compartment door hinges. We also have a "C", but it's not been in service long enough to tell anything yet. I've looked at a few Toyne trucks too, and they appear well constructed (very good welders out in Breda).

    C6

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    Default A picture's worth a thousand words they say

    I believe these pictures say it all, this is the strongest body period. That's 9000 lbs of force pulling on that anchor point AND the body is still warranted for 20 years. You will never encounter that level of strain in the field.

    Oh, I almost forgot, it's a Rosenbauer General Division extruded aluminum body.
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    Last edited by VanIsleEVT; 10-29-2009 at 01:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1
    Unless you can prove it isn't, then it would be "FACT", and not "BOLD".
    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10
    BS. Empty headed marketing blather unless can demonstrate that, by some measure or other, however relevant or meaningless, that their statements are true.

    For example consider case of rollover "strenght". No bent body is going to provide the rollover strength and cab protection of a welded extruded body.
    You can plug it however you want to, but for starters, lets look at normal usage, and not a rollover.

    I had to send back 2 Toynes with extruded aluminum bodies because they had broken welds and mounts on them. Both are 2001, and sent back in 2008 and 2009. What I got back was bodies that were bolted stainless steel, and looked alot better and stronger than what we had before, under normal fire truck usage.

    So take it any way you want to. We like the Toyne and Crimsons bodies. But to pick one over the other, the Crimsons are just a tad better built and reinforced.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFPD2005 View Post
    Any forum members out there bold enough to rank what they think is the strongest body to the least strong body? If you choose to do so please observe the following....

    1. Personal hands-on knowledge of the builders quality and capability.
    2. Only compare apparatus 5 years old or newer as we all know quality can fluctuate.
    3. Body construction only, not ladders, or chassis
    4. I know there are a lot of variables out there, but this isn't for NASA.

    Let me try to name everyone I can think of. Just throwing out names, NOT ranking them.

    ALF, KME, Ahrens-Fox, Maxim (the new), Seagrave, Pierce, Ferrara, Sutphen, Smeal, 4Guys, Custom Fire, Toyne, Alexis, E-One, Rosenbauer General, Rosenbauer Central, Plastisol, Darley, Crimson, GimaexUSA, SVI, EVI, Hackney, PL Custom, Precision, Summit, sure there is more...

    Anyone ready to throw down their opinion?
    Fort Garry, Hub, Metalfab, Allain Equipment, LRB Fabricating, Lantyz Truck Bodies, Tri Star Industries.

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    I think some here are confusing poor craftsmanship with poor design. THey should not be confused, as something can be designed correctly but installed wrong.

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    Default Traditions

    The european departments have been utilzing composite copolymer fire bodies on their apparatus for many years and have found them to be extremely durable. These type of bodies are more prevalent than either stainless or aluminum and they are utilizing them on engines, ladders and heavy rescue units without significant issues in all types of climates.

    http://www.polybilteurope.com/

    http://www.plastisol.com/

    Both of these companies now have divisions in the United States but the deep seated traditions of the fire service have yet to readily accept the concept of an alternative fire body on their apparatus.

    Our department recently ordered a new engine from W.S. Darley which will incorporate a CoPoly Pumper Rescue Body on a Spartan Chassis.

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    FireMech,

    Was one of those at Toyne in January? I saw an OFD pumper there and wow.....the cab looked rough, and I think thats an understatement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFPD2005 View Post
    FireMech,

    Was one of those at Toyne in January? I saw an OFD pumper there and wow.....the cab looked rough, and I think thats an understatement.
    Yeah, that was one of them. Believe it or not, nothing was done with the cab. I think you saw it after they pulled the old box off of it, and was installing the new SS box.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reliance View Post
    Fort Garry, Hub, Metalfab, Allain Equipment, LRB Fabricating, Lantyz Truck Bodies, Tri Star Industries.
    Marion Body Works

    AND - They build some of the strongest cabs in our industry as well.

    Sean Desjardins, Captain
    Westampton Township Emergency Services
    http://www.westamptonfire.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadCaptain27 View Post
    Marion Body Works

    AND - They build some of the strongest cabs in our industry as well.
    Precision. MA dept just took delivery of a rear mount rescue pumper and I'm really impressed with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    You can plug it however you want to, but for starters, lets look at normal usage, and not a rollover.

    I had to send back 2 Toynes with extruded aluminum bodies because they had broken welds and mounts on them. Both are 2001, and sent back in 2008 and 2009. What I got back was bodies that were bolted stainless steel, and looked alot better and stronger than what we had before, under normal fire truck usage.

    So take it any way you want to. We like the Toyne and Crimsons bodies. But to pick one over the other, the Crimsons are just a tad better built and reinforced.

    FM1
    Won't find me making a Toyne defense. Several fans on this board and they at times make some fine trucks. But the only consistent thing with them is that there is no consistancy. They'll build anything if things are slow. Will mix materials (steel angle iron mixed with aluminum). A tiny firm can't be expert in every single material/construction method just because a FD has $ to spend or to be able to pitch one as why they are different from the other guys (SS, Extruded, Bent steel, bent alum, gavenelle, poly etc etc etc). Which week is it must be pushing _____?

    Pumpers, tankers, wildland, rescue, heavy rescue, aerials. A tiny firm can't do EVERYTHING, have to specialize in something to be competent in it. Skilled builders can't pickup/fill in and make it all work out on every project.

    Generic/market extrusions to not have tongue/groove design as those specific to the fire industry. Huge difference with the final result.

    Many do not realize that a General is a MUCH different truck that a Central. Even though both may have Rosy logo on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleEVT View Post
    I believe these pictures say it all, this is the strongest body period. That's 9000 lbs of force pulling on that anchor point AND the body is still warranted for 20 years. You will never encounter that level of strain in the field.

    Oh, I almost forgot, it's a Rosenbauer General Division extruded aluminum body.
    Well now that they have the body down, they can concentrate
    on their headlight strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Many do not realize that a General is a MUCH different truck that a Central. Even though both may have Rosy logo on them.
    You are 100 percent right about that. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

    C6

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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadCaptain27 View Post
    Marion Body Works

    AND - They build some of the strongest cabs in our industry as well.

    Glad to see somebody giving "Props" where props are due.

    In my opinion, the most forgotten and under-estimated manufacturer in the business. Shocking, considering they've been building ALL aluminum Emergency Service bodies for so long. (Longer than anyone else that I am aware of.)

    Hmmm they build a mean MM platform too it seems...
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    The dealer's know the difference between Central and General, it's the difference between making $10k and $25k profit. Our dealer in the area pushes the Central as a "fully extruded aluminum" constructed body just like a "Pierce"- Hogwash. A minimally engineered, low budget, no two holes alike piece of something would be a better descriptor. The General though is FANTASTICAL! General builds one tough body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northeast68 View Post
    Glad to see somebody giving "Props" where props are due.

    In my opinion, the most forgotten and under-estimated manufacturer in the business. Shocking, considering they've been building ALL aluminum Emergency Service bodies for so long. (Longer than anyone else that I am aware of.)

    Hmmm they build a mean MM platform too it seems...
    Best part of your rig... Cab was built at Marion, shipped to Spartan, chassis shipped to Marion for Prep, shipped to RK for the aerial, shipped back to Marion for the body, then off to your dealer, and finally to your firehouse.

    At least the motor was well broken in before you got it! (all in good fun brother)

    Nice looking rig. How's the RK aerial doing for you?

    A Marion pumper where I cut my teeth in Beverly NJ - drove out the building with a high side door open. Took the entire reinforced brick column out of the front of the station. Stopped, closed the door, and continued to the call. (I wasn't the driver, just a witness) Ever since then I have had all the faith in the world in Marion's abilities.

    Sean Desjardins, Captain
    Westampton Township Emergency Services
    http://www.westamptonfire.org

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    Well now that they have the body down, they can concentrate
    on their headlight strength.
    That would be a Spartan issue, not Rosenbauer no matter which division put the body on it. We install Hella H4 lights in our Spartans, works pretty good. I've been considering these http://www.kbcarstuff.com/PhotoGalle...Code=XD%2D4656

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