Thread: Nims compliant

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    Default Nims compliant

    Hello everyone. I was wondering if you guys can help me out.

    I am captain in a small vol dept in NY and looking for ways to get us grants. We operate with a budget of $73,000 (not much) We have a governing body of 5 commisioners.

    My question: My cheif says we are not eligible to receive Fema grants because our commisioners did not adopt the nims compliance, back when it first came out. Does this mean we will never be eligible or can we start now to be eligible for next years round of grants?

    Thank You and any other ways you can think of that will help me would be greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    Hello everyone. I was wondering if you guys can help me out.

    I am captain in a small vol dept in NY and looking for ways to get us grants. We operate with a budget of $73,000 (not much) We have a governing body of 5 commisioners.

    My question: My cheif says we are not eligible to receive Fema grants because our commisioners did not adopt the nims compliance, back when it first came out. Does this mean we will never be eligible or can we start now to be eligible for next years round of grants?

    Thank You and any other ways you can think of that will help me would be greatly appreciated.
    Once you become compliant you sould be good to go. I would start with either your local ema coordinator for classes (100,200,700,800) or take them online http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/ . Then you will need to bring the officers up to 300 & 400 (must be done in classroom).

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    thank you that is what i figured.... didn't seem right that he said we could never be eligible. do we have to take this once or yearly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    thank you that is what i figured.... didn't seem right that he said we could never be eligible. do we have to take this once or yearly?
    Once unless they make a major shift in one of the levels. Once they adopt rules saying all will abide by the NIMS principles you're good to go on with the training. Anyone that's computer literate can take the online ones easily, I forgot I never turned in my paperwork on 800,100, or 200 so I did them online last week. All 3 tests in under 90 minutes, passed, and certs emailed within 2 days. It's probably the same link as AFPD posted but training.fema.gov is the easier one for me to remember. You can download the manuals and then take the test online for those 4 and be done pretty quickly with most of the department. 300 and 400 are required for Chief officers and government officials.

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    $73k, try operating with less than half of that. I seriously believe if we had that amount, we would not need a FEMA grant. I am not saying dont apply, and I know that a lot of depts get more $, just be careful about saying $73,000 isnt much. As for taking the class once vs. yearly, as long as you have the class I think that is sufficient. However, about every 3-5 years some of our officers change. It doesnt hurt to take the class again for a refresher.
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    sorry i know there are budgets that are way less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    sorry i know there are budgets that are way less.
    Don't be, budget is only one piece of the pie. I have some departments that get $20k a year and have better equipment than someone with $100k. Now line up calls and all those other good things then it's easy to see why the disparity exists since the $100k department is always replacing something because of all the fires they run. Budgets are never an apples to apples comparison. Just because you don't have a large budget doesn't mean you need a grant and vice-versa. That's why there are all of those other statistics, plus a narrative to argue it out and why risk is the thing to harp on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    ... 800,100, or 200 so I did them online last week. All 3 tests in under 90 minutes, passed, and certs emailed within 2 days...
    Side note.

    Not an attack on you at all BC....

    But it's awfully sad that NIMS is something FEMA considers so important yet it can be done online in less than 90 minutes.


    Ok, back to grant discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Side note.

    Not an attack on you at all BC....

    But it's awfully sad that NIMS is something FEMA considers so important yet it can be done online in less than 90 minutes.


    Ok, back to grant discussion.
    To clarify that was tests in 90 minutes, not the whole thing. Of course us nerds can read faster than the average bear so that part wasn't so bad either.... Plus all NIMS did was put different words to the same old jobs from ye olden ICS of yesteryear. Bunch of people i know took the tests without even reading the manual and passed. It's like most things anymore, without the piece of paper your knowledge means nothing in court. Get the paper, all is well. Actually knowing anything is secondary...

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    Yes NIMS is a great idea. Long overdo, but chasing this carrot on the stick we call funding and finding out our chances keep getting cut in favor of other , Oh! hell, I'm tired of whining about that one.

    Just write your grant application anyway and include how you have begun a policy of becoming NIMS and ICS compliant. Then after submitting follow through with making your statement true. (Get your experience going) Will look good for next years application.

    BTW my spending budget in house is ridiculous compared to yours. You rich vollys kill me. LOL

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    Is not N.I.M.S. required for ALL federal grants ?

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    All DHS grants!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    All DHS grants!
    You got your venison slim jims already? Hope your car didn't do it for you as mine almost did last night. I hate them.

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    There's NIMS and then there's NIMSCAST, NIMSCAST. All DHS funding requires NIMS and, as I understand it, all Federal Preparedness funding requires NIMSCAST. I have been told that the AFG does NOT require the completion of NIMSCAST but...... It doesn't take too long to complete, maybe 1-2 hours if starting from scratch. Anyone with questions should contact their particular State emergency management office for guidance, information, and details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kprsn1 View Post
    There's NIMS and then there's NIMSCAST, NIMSCAST. All DHS funding requires NIMS and, as I understand it, all Federal Preparedness funding requires NIMSCAST. I have been told that the AFG does NOT require the completion of NIMSCAST but...... It doesn't take too long to complete, maybe 1-2 hours if starting from scratch. Anyone with questions should contact their particular State emergency management office for guidance, information, and details.
    States are checking for certification also, all TX state grants require a certificate showing compliance is on file with Austin. Doesn't matter if you did it or not, has to be documented with them, otherwise no Forestry or other money can be doled out. States have their feet being held to the fire to make it happen otherwise their federal funding is in jeopardy also, and since things tend to roll downhill....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kprsn1 View Post
    There's NIMS and then there's NIMSCAST, NIMSCAST. All DHS funding requires NIMS and, as I understand it, all Federal Preparedness funding requires NIMSCAST. I have been told that the AFG does NOT require the completion of NIMSCAST but...... It doesn't take too long to complete, maybe 1-2 hours if starting from scratch. Anyone with questions should contact their particular State emergency management office for guidance, information, and details.
    In most cases, the LEPC/LEPD that the FD falls under will have completed the NIMSCAST. That is unless the City has it's own EM agency.

    We got into this question a while back and found that while we have our own EM, we still fell under the umbrella of our LEPD and they had completed the NIMSCAST and we didn't have to. Not to say an FD can't or shouldn't, as it's pretty good assessment of where you are on NIMS compliance.

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    Monday night our director of emergency management informed us a towns water dept got federal funding, but that they needed their NIMS certification verified before the funds could be transferred. So yes they're serious about NIMS com pliancy.
    Even on a local government administration and departmental level.

    But I understand there was some problem with locating the departments certifications and it seems our county ema is constantly having to collect these certifications and updating them to our states new 'Office of Information Collection'. Supposed to be a sort of clearing house or central collecting point for this and other documentation as it appeared these ema offices were non-stop gathering certification for one agency and passing them to another, however for some reason this system seems to have failed to take the workload off of our local emergency management offices as was intended.

    I still have a problem with NIMS because of the flood of bureaucracy its creating. The purpose of NIMS's intent to standardize rules on how to respond to emergency events between agencies and their lines of who is in charge and how to transfer the OIC along with job responsibilities, but as doctors say, "First do no harm". I am seeing problems develop from a good intention. Maybe, for now, stop NIMS and ICS at the state agency level and go no lower for now. They're gonna demand to step in if my nuclear plant has an event anyway and they should. Let the counties and local agencies adopt the NIMS procedures for their own mutual agreements and not make them mandatory for now until a better system of collection and record keeping is installed.

    Anyway, collecting NIMS certifications from board members of a small water project to me seems to be getting a little carried away with this process.
    Last edited by jam24u; 10-29-2009 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Monday night our director of emergency management informed us a towns water dept got federal funding, but that they needed their NIMS certification verified before the funds could be transferred. So yes they're serious about NIMS com pliancy.
    Even on a local government administration and departmental level.

    But I understand there was some problem with locating the departments certifications and it seems our county ema is constantly having to collect these certifications and updating them to our states new 'Office of Information Collection'. Supposed to be a sort of clearing house or central collecting point for this and other documentation as it appeared these ema offices were non-stop gathering certification for one agency and passing them to another, however for some reason this system seems to have failed to take the workload off of our local emergency management offices as was intended.

    I still have a problem with NIMS because of the flood of bureaucracy its creating. The purpose of NIMS's intent to standardize rules on how to respond to emergency events between agencies and their lines of who is in charge and how to transfer the OIC along with job responsibilities, but as doctors say, "First do no harm". I am seeing problems develop from a good intention. Maybe, for now, stop NIMS and ICS at the state agency level and go no lower for now. They're gonna demand to step in if my nuclear plant has an event anyway and they should. Let the counties and local agencies adopt the NIMS procedures for their own mutual agreements and not make them mandatory for now until a better system of collection and record keeping is installed.

    Anyway, collecting NIMS certifications from board members of a small water project to me seems to be getting a little carried away with this process.
    Not really, in a major fire you're going to need them involved for boosting pressure, knowing capacities and capabilities, etc. We've had major head-butting around here with the Utility Districts trying to bill for water usage for drills (can kinda understand that one) and also for fires. Heard once where a MUD rep went up during a working fire and said stop using their water, fire wasn't even under control. Adopting NIMS forces everyone to play well with others, meaning those fireground showdowns won't/shouldn't exist anymore because it eliminates the lines between jurisdictions during emergencies of any size. The way things should be. The feds are stepping in because in so many cases the lower levels play the smalltown politics games and nothing gets done, meaning in the long run it costs everyone more money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    In most cases, the LEPC/LEPD that the FD falls under will have completed the NIMSCAST. That is unless the City has it's own EM agency.

    We got into this question a while back and found that while we have our own EM, we still fell under the umbrella of our LEPD and they had completed the NIMSCAST and we didn't have to. Not to say an FD can't or shouldn't, as it's pretty good assessment of where you are on NIMS compliance.
    Catch, from what I gather that may be true in some cases but not all. I know there's some confusion around here in regards to that. For example, a FD that falls under a City government is covered by the City's NIMSCAST. A fire district as it's own governmental body that attempts to be blanketed under a county emergency management NIMSCAST might not be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Not really, in a major fire you're going to need them involved for boosting pressure, knowing capacities and capabilities, etc. We've had major head-butting around here with the Utility Districts trying to bill for water usage for drills (can kinda understand that one) and also for fires. Heard once where a MUD rep went up during a working fire and said stop using their water, fire wasn't even under control. Adopting NIMS forces everyone to play well with others, meaning those fireground showdowns won't/shouldn't exist anymore because it eliminates the lines between jurisdictions during emergencies of any size. The way things should be. The feds are stepping in because in so many cases the lower levels play the smalltown politics games and nothing gets done, meaning in the long run it costs everyone more money.
    Brian,
    That almost sounds like the liberal argument that big government knows whats best for you and we're too dumb to know what's best for us.
    Some nut coming up to a fire ground saying stop using the water on a fire is an extreme rare example and shouldn't be presented as an argument for the existence of NIMS. Most of the time we played pretty well with each other before NIMS and there is still examples of not working together after NIMS. There has been endless examples of successful interagency cooperation previous of 2005. When the recent hurricane hit Galveston there was some preplanning of bus use to evacuate those at risk that turned out to have saved many lives and that was not done under NIMS, though they may claim it afterwards. It was seeing a need in advance and the logic of a preplan. Some would say we were even more cost effective before NIMS being installed, even producing the same outcomes many times over, the same outcomes that NIMS wants too, and they did it without the millions it costs to run the NIMS agency.

    Now don't misunderstand my NIMS, ICS position. I am totally in favor and see its intent, but it is getting to the point of us working for NIMS when NIMS is supposed to be working for us. Its the NIMS way or you get nothing. NIMS is supposed to be a tool for helping when help is needed. A Plan in fact and it looks like NIMS is turning from a plan into its own authoritative entity requiring/demanding boatloads of time and millions per day.
    We need to think of making NIMS more beneficial time and costwise is my position, otherwise why have it if it costs too much to have in place? Kinda like AFG thinking you should have only so many vehicles of a certain type and not exceeding a certain cost. Value per dollar.
    Last edited by jam24u; 10-29-2009 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Brian,
    That almost sounds like the liberal argument that big government knows whats best for you and we're too dumb to know what's best for us.
    Some nut coming up to a fire ground saying stop using the water on a fire is an extreme rare example and shouldn't be presented as an argument for the existence of NIMS. Most of the time we played pretty well with each other before NIMS and there is still examples of not working together after NIMS. There has been endless examples of successful interagency cooperation previous of 2005. When the recent hurricane hit Galveston there was some preplanning of bus use to evacuate those at risk that turned out to have saved many lives and that was not done under NIMS, though they may claim it afterwards. It was seeing a need in advance and the logic of a preplan. Some would say we were even more cost effective before NIMS being installed, even producing the same outcomes many times over, the same outcomes that NIMS wants too, and they did it without the millions it costs to run the NIMS agency.

    Now don't misunderstand my NIMS, ICS position. I am totally in favor and see its intent, but it is getting to the point of us working for NIMS when NIMS is supposed to be working for us. Its the NIMS way or you get nothing. NIMS is supposed to be a tool for helping when help is needed. A Plan in fact and it looks like NIMS is turning from a plan into its own authoritative entity requiring/demanding boatloads of time and millions per day.
    We need to think of making NIMS more beneficial time and costwise is my position, otherwise why have it if it costs too much to have in place? Kinda like AFG thinking you should have only so many vehicles of a certain type and not exceeding a certain cost. Value per dollar.
    In certain cases the feds have to step in because a localized area doesn't want to do the right thing. Civil rights anyone?

    Plus if the fire service was committed to doing the right thing then we'd all be done by know since it's been what, 7 years since NIMS popped up? NIMS was followed to a t on a regional scale down here for Ike, starting at the lower levels and then working up. Doesn't mean every small department affected was done with NIMS but at the county levels the proper communications channels were in place to avoid the Rita mishaps of too many leaving at the same time and having huge backups across I-10 and I-45 on top of every side road in between.

    I really can't see how much easier it can get to become compliant. TX even has a pre-written NIMS adoption paper on their web site that any city or taxing district can download, sign, and send in. The first 4 classes are free online, only chiefs and higher elected officials need 300 and 400. For Chiefs we spend more time in Managing Tactical Company Ops classes than one would in those two. As a FF way back when I spent 16 hours in Incident Command classes as part of being a FF.

    We talk on here about being regional, being seamless in operations and on major incidents. How many aren't carrying adapters for supply lines on multi-department water supply operations? Very few probably, have to be able to move water to handle the incident. Everyone is scrambling for regional communications systems so we can talk to each other.

    NIMS is the common denominator for every response no matter what type of incident. If we don't practice, we forget. It may only be that one major incident in 20 years that we end up using it on but those are the ones where more than a single family can end up as fatalities. Half a town could be lost in a major flood, hurricane, tornado, etc. Quick and common communications/setup is the answer, hence NIMS. That way whether one has to interface with local PD, state PD, multi-county responses, FBI, ATF, or whoever there is no figuring out whose way something is going to be done. Book's already written, follow it. And unfortunately to get some people to do the right thing, feds have to withold money to make it happen.

    Now don't stretch this into the health care debate and their claim they know what's best for us there. My health affects me and my family and if I choose to handle my health care bills on my own without insurance then so be it, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a tax for paying out of pocket. Which is what is exactly happening right now, we're paying entirely out of pocket for the baby to be delivered, and spending less. For a c-section delivery we're paying less than just what the premiums would have been. These people screaming health care is to expensive, well no kidding. It's a pay me now a lot or pay me a lot later system with or without insurance. And if someone chooses to not have insurance and pay their own bills, so be it. They run up a tab, they work to pay it off.

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    you'll love this Brian,
    I paid for my baby's birth and doctors bill by barter. I installed new standing rigging on his sailboat down in Corpus. Worked out great.
    anyway,
    You of course cut right through to the main points of concern and that I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. What I would like to see happen with NIMS now is, no more additions. They wanted a plan. They've got it. If adjustments need to be made, they need to be similar to like what they did with ICS 100. Made it to ICS-100a.
    The worry here is what has gotten out of control of late with some new agencies seeming to recreate the need for their existence. Creating a another sense of urgency. We don't need to see NIMS doing the same. Since I have gotten the required certifications, I do not want them to add another.

    We must not let this get out of control by those from within. I say we have the NIMS in place as is and do not allow it to get any larger than it is. Otherwise we'll end up playing cat to their mouse non-stop.

    Thanks for your views and hope you can barter out your new baby bills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    you'll love this Brian,
    I paid for my baby's birth and doctors bill by barter. I installed new standing rigging on his sailboat down in Corpus. Worked out great.
    anyway,
    You of course cut right through to the main points of concern and that I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. What I would like to see happen with NIMS now is, no more additions. They wanted a plan. They've got it. If adjustments need to be made, they need to be similar to like what they did with ICS 100. Made it to ICS-100a.
    The worry here is what has gotten out of control of late with some new agencies seeming to recreate the need for their existence. Creating a another sense of urgency. We don't need to see NIMS doing the same. Since I have gotten the required certifications, I do not want them to add another.

    We must not let this get out of control by those from within. I say we have the NIMS in place as is and do not allow it to get any larger than it is. Otherwise we'll end up playing cat to their mouse non-stop.

    Thanks for your views and hope you can barter out your new baby bills.
    Thanks, already paid the bills so unless something unpredictable happens we're done for. Then he gets to reimburse us starting around 8 when he gets to start mowing the lawn. Of course he'll have it a little harder, I had a riding mower on our acre growing up, he'll have a push mower on about a quarter acre. Oh well, builds character. I carried 2 golf bags on many a loop in my teenage years, I think I've come close to earning some laziness.

    And I'm with you on NIMS. It's national, standardized, isn't much to change now that we all have the same page to be on. Take the class once, and officially done with it. I'll probably refresh every now and again if I ever end up moving up the ladder again but otherwise just wearing the black hat won't need to know much more than what I do now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kprsn1 View Post
    Catch, from what I gather that may be true in some cases but not all. I know there's some confusion around here in regards to that. For example, a FD that falls under a City government is covered by the City's NIMSCAST. A fire district as it's own governmental body that attempts to be blanketed under a county emergency management NIMSCAST might not be.
    We are like the latter, a district that falls under the county EM. This came from our regional SEMA rep, so it's not straight from the top, but she's never led me wrong before.

    It sure doesn't hurt to check, or to go ahead and do the NIMSCAST.

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