1. #26
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SEMPERFI3 View Post

    And Johnny gage (pardon my nick name) even with all the down sides to front suctions and even if all the evils be known to all people, they are just too popular. A front suction is like a blond bomb shell of sorts. Your kicking a dead horse. The rear suction pictured is a pretty cool set up, beacuse you slide the hard suction off and hook it right up to the port-a-tank.

    No worries, it is a nickname. I was a huge fan of Emergency! when I was a kid. I got tagged with the nickname back when I was a probie. My real name is Nate.

    That front intake is no blonde bombshell, it's more like a Corvette body on a Chevette chassis. It looks sweet from the outside, but performs like a turd. (I was gonna go a different direction, but decided to keep it clean, LOL)

    I don't look at it as beating a dead horse. Almost every time I teach a pump operations class I find things that people are doing "because we've always done it that way" that are not only poor procedure, they're unsafe. Part of my job is to dispel myths about pump operation and get the correct information to people.

    I don't expect by putting up a few posts in a forum I'm going to convince everyone in the fire service of how awful front suctions are. However, if the info gets in the hands of a few people on truck committees and they take it into consideration when writing the specs on their new apparatus then it is worthwhile to put it out there.

    That photo is exactly what I'm talking about with rear suctions. The OEM runs the pipe right down the frame rail. No bends, no 90 degree elbows and (relatively) no friction loss. In that location you are sacrificing little to no compartment space.

    I've also seen that type of intake with the connection inside a roll-up door on the back, so if you did want a bigger compartment back there you can still have it. Several of the pumpers from my old department had that kind of setup. Under the pipe and inside the door was a tray with a 50' section of 4" preconnected to it and a bag attached to the hydrant end of the hose with all necessary tools and fitting for hydrant hook-up.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Baltimore Maryland
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Johnny gauge

    So to re-cap the thread we basically have severely hampered our 2000 GPM pumper for a number of reasons:

    #1 The additional friction loss in the 4" front suction hose, vs 5".
    #2 The additional length of the suction hose (over kill)
    #3 The in-efficient front suction piping.
    #4 The single 800' load of 4" supply line.
    #5 The in-accessibility of the 3" hose loads.

    Interesting points:

    As stated in an earlier thread. If we were to use one of the 4" lines in the bins for a splice line, that would leave us with a single 50' or a 33' suction line...reduced GPM

    We have no practical fittings to place a second 4" discharge line into operation....reduced GPM

    We have no access to our 3" hose unless we pull the two skid loads off, so we are set up for one single lay of 4" hose.....reduced GPM

    The hydrant gate is no longer mandatory......reduced GPM

    I feel for the in-experienced driver who gets caught up with this big high horsepower, high GPM pumper that has been reduced to a midi pumper, by policy. When it happens and I know it will, the policy will not be in question, it will be the driver who will be scrutinized.

    It certainly will be my recommendation to anyone that will listen:

    #1 Use the side intake only, to minimize friction loss.

    #2 ALWAYS "dress" the hydrant and put a second suction line into service if there is any question.

    #3 Use the front suction only if a second 4" line is put into service.

    #4 Be prepared to augment the 4" discharge hose, by pulling the skids off to reach the 3" loaded below.

    Thanks for your support, your ideas and allowing me to vent on such a frustrating issue.

  3. #28
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    The biggest thing to keep in mind is that when operating from a hydrant the pump rating goes out the window. The limiting factors are almost always the hydrant, the hose, and any suction piping that has been added to the pump.

    I always throw a big thumbs up at dressing out a hydrant. I've been in the situation before where 20 minutes into a job I needed a second suction line, but the guy who grabbed the plug failed to dress it out. Not fun.

    I think you've got a pretty good list of ideas to kick around with the rest of your department there. If you ever need something faster than I'd be able to respond to it on here feel free to call me at the office: 651-450-5220.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  4. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Semperfi,

    For the reason you stated (having to splice in to your lay of 4") I am a firm believer that all engines should carry two 25' and two 50' sections of whatever size supply hose they carry. Its also good idea to carry a pair of 25' sections of 3" if you use LDH. they are handy for refilling the tank, using on manifolds/siamese, supplying twin inlet deluge guns through a gated wye of LDH etc.

    Nate,

    Also good to keep the word out there that pump ratings are very much misunderstood when utilizing the rigs on hydrants and in relay. Seems to be a lost concept.

    This has been a great discussion.

  5. #30
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Baltimore Maryland
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Yes I agree the hydrant is the determining factor as far as flow goes, as I related to in my earlier threads, as our water supply varies drastically.

    How rude of me, I should of said thanks to all who have replied to my questions and concerns, as there were many interesting come backs!

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Good discussions like this are what makes having a board like this truly worthwhile.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    The biggest thing to keep in mind is that when operating from a hydrant the pump rating goes out the window. The limiting factors are almost always the hydrant, the hose, and any suction piping that has been added to the pump.
    Thank you for bringing this up. Most of our new pump operators get stuck on the rated capacity of their pump and think that is all the water they can move.

    The piping is a bigger issue than most firefighters think and most departments overlook when speccing apparatus.

    Good topic.

    We carry 1000' of 5" Snap-Tite Triple Duty (300 psi service test) and a 25' of 5" pre-connect on the front intake and another 30' section of 5" rolled. All fittings are 4 1/2" NST (many old hydrants make switching them costly.)

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    The biggest thing to keep in mind is that when operating from a hydrant the pump rating goes out the window. The limiting factors are almost always the hydrant, the hose, and any suction piping that has been added to the pump.
    Very true. Now if our some our engineers would only listen and do little reading. Heck we have some that would swear on their mommy's grave that 5" can't be used on hydrants with just 2.5 ports. I then like to throw out the question of how much water will a 2" straight tip will flow at 80 psi.

    As other's have said great discussion

  9. #34
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TAFD00367 View Post
    Very true. Now if our some our engineers would only listen and do little reading. Heck we have some that would swear on their mommy's grave that 5" can't be used on hydrants with just 2.5 ports. I then like to throw out the question of how much water will a 2" straight tip will flow at 80 psi.

    As other's have said great discussion
    BINGO!

    Everyone seems to think that smoothbore orifice flow calculations only apply to a nozzle, and writes off that they are a universal law of physics. I get a kick out of it when people are surprised that they will cavitate their pump by circulating tank water with the tank fill valve wide open.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    BINGO!

    Everyone seems to think that smoothbore orifice flow calculations only apply to a nozzle, and writes off that they are a universal law of physics. I get a kick out of it when people are surprised that they will cavitate their pump by circulating tank water with the tank fill valve wide open.
    Your right a round hole is a round hole no matter if it's 2" 2.5" or 4.5"... We have two quints that will cavitate easily when opening the tank fill with just a little throttle.


    SEMPERFI3,

    Only thing that I can think of too add is do what you have do if can at your station. I'm in same boat as you in way as the other engineers at my station could give a S**T less. I move hydrant fittings and set up supply hose's to my liking every shift to save time in case there needed. Then before shift change put every back in place for the other guys. I'm still working on getting at least 250' of 2.5" dead lay line added to rear bed along with increasing our 5" and reduced some of the 3" hose. I made that comment back a few shifts ago got we don't need that much 5" so just take all of it off and fill back in with 3".

  11. #36
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SEMPERFI3 View Post
    I feel for the in-experienced driver who gets caught up with this big high horsepower, high GPM pumper that has been reduced to a midi pumper, by policy. When it happens and I know it will, the policy will not be in question, it will be the driver who will be scrutinized..
    Wait, you're not trying to say that the D/O will be blamed for the Fire Chief's poorly researched & designed problems are you? No that would never happen!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  12. #37
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Baltimore Maryland
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Jason,

    I've seen it many times over the years, someone will have an issue and a point to press on and the guys will turn their heads and look the other way. I'll say this too, be ready for people to screw with you if they find you have an interest in something or a strong opinion on whatever issue is at hand. They do it just for fun...

    Many people will also be indifferent about a subject, until it actually happens to them and then they get upset if you remind them that you had a solution to the problem but you were just blown off.

    I plan on having my own second hydrant bag with extra adapters and things I feel that are necessary to work around this new policy. I'll probably get into trouble, however I'll feel better knowing at least I made an attempt to make the situation better.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Long suction hose
    By iamchiefsmart in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-08-2009, 05:32 PM
  2. 6" Hard Suction Hose on a 1000 GPM Pumper?
    By hdavid66 in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-23-2008, 04:04 PM
  3. Suction hose couplings
    By BlitzfireSolo in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-28-2007, 12:52 AM
  4. Suction Hose on a Zico Tank Lift
    By 10House in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-09-2007, 04:18 PM
  5. Pumping Question
    By vfdguy in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 08-21-2006, 04:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register