Fireground search for small children.

[bradroger07]

I was curious if anyone has seen or heard of an instance where a small child was found hiding in a closet or dresser during a fire? We are taught to search these areas for small children during primary search. I have a issue with this because the primary search must be rapid. And if we are looking in cabinets and drawers are we wasting valuable time? I was involved in a tragic fire fatality that claimed the lives of three small children and thier mother a few years ago. None of the children in this case were found hiding in any way. Also, I have a 4 and 2 year old and it is hard for me to think they would want to hide from a fire because they don`t hide from anything really. Along with fire prevention in schools I think children are exposed to good fire safety.
So my question is this a fire service myth that needs to be busted so that we can save valuable seconds wasted searching under sinks and in pantries and by-pass these area to swiftly hit the prime target areas to increase chances for survival

[nmfire]

You think small children hiding under the bed or in a closet when they're scared or nervous is a myth??

[nameless]

I don't know about in drawers, they'd have to be very large. I know many kids that like hiding the the back of the closet, in large cabinets, behind/under beds, just in any small hidden space. It doesn't take much time to sweep a closet, check under a bed, open up an armoire.

You aren't doing detailed searches of these areas, just stick your arm in and make sure there isn't any small person shaped objects inside.

[robs411]

I have attached two pictures of my niece, when she was hiding from mom because it was time to pick up the toys, now imagine a fire.

[owenscott]

We had a fatal fire where the mentally handicapped person was almost out the door with his mother and went back and hide in his room. So i'm guessing he counts as hiding ... can't remember if they found him under the covers or under the bed.

[bradroger07]

I`m sorry to hear that.But thanks for the information, any information to share and help save a life is well worth the time. I will put this in the mental tool box.

[bradroger07]

I don't know about in drawers, they'd have to be very large. I know many kids that like hiding the the back of the closet, in large cabinets, behind/under beds, just in any small hidden space. It doesn't take much time to sweep a closet, check under a bed, open up an armoire.

You aren't doing detailed searches of these areas, just stick your arm in and make sure there isn't any small person shaped objects inside.

I see new guys come out of recruit school and when they do a left or right hand search during training and spend too much time sweeping through 9 or 10 cabinets and just taking too long.Of course its always easier in training because there isn`t any clutter. These commercial/residential 2500 sq. ft. homes are getting larger,more rooms and more cabinet space,large kitchens and many pieces of furniture,even a mobile home can be hard to search if someone is a pack-rat,or may have multiple beds,cribs,bassinet,toys in one room etc. factor in zero visibility and the adrenaline its easier said than done.
But you are right these searches need to be quick sweeps and I guess a good amount of experience is needed to make judgement of the amount of time needed to sweep during a primary search.
Thanks for your feed-back

[bradroger07]

You think small children hiding under the bed or in a closet when they're scared or nervous is a myth??

Well, in a nutshell thats the question I`m asking. In your experience fighting fires or anyone at your firehouse have actually seen where children hide in the event of a fire? I think the human instinct of self-preservation over rides any fear during something like a structure fire. The question popped into my head partially from my own haunting experience and a article I read today about truck company operations that mentioned searching under a pile of clothes for a child. I thought that was crazy. I have been to house fires where the clothing was piled up past the window sill and took six men,a chainsaw to make a larger opening a hour to remove all the clothing for overhaul.I know that children get scared, what I`m thinking is time, how can I get to that child quicker, And hopefully save them this time.

[bradroger07]

We had a fatal fire where the mentally handicapped person was almost out the door with his mother and went back and hide in his room. So i'm guessing he counts as hiding ... can't remember if they found him under the covers or under the bed.

I`m sorry to hear that.But thanks for the information, any information to share and help save a life is well worth the time. I will put this in the mental tool box.
Be Safe Brother

[bradroger07]

I have attached two pictures of my niece, when she was hiding from mom because it was time to pick up the toys, now imagine a fire.

That a good photo. I wouldn`t think to check inside a toy during a search.Wouldn`t even think a child could fit. I can imagine there are a lot of hiding places can find when kids are having fun,I know I have two kids, but thats what I`m trying to separate is what is imagined and what the experience is of the fire fighters during fire ground operations.
Thanks agian for the photos, good eye opener.

[nmfire]

A child's mental processing of "self-preservation" is vastly different than a grown adult. A child's idea of a safe place to preserve one's self is places like under the bed or hiding in a closet or crawling under the sheets. When was the last time you saw a kid get scared and run for a fire exit. No, they run and either cling to mommy or hide from whatever is scary.

[grauch]

Just think, kids are like cats, when scared they hide. And adults are like dogs they want to get out and away.

[MarcusKspn]

A child's mental processing of "self-preservation" is vastly different than a grown adult. A child's idea of a safe place to preserve one's self is places like under the bed or hiding in a closet or crawling under the sheets. When was the last time you saw a kid get scared and run for a fire exit. No, they run and either cling to mommy or hide from whatever is scary.

Many young children also think that if they cannot see the threat, the threat cannot see them either.

If they hide in the closet/under the bed/in a cabinet, they cannot see the fire. If they cannot see the fire, then the fire cannot see them. If the fire cannot see them, then the fire cannot hurt them. They don't think about the fact that fire is fluid and that it can burn through walls and doors. They think that if they hide from it they will be safe.

[RFD21C]

One of the most common mistakes i see when teaching searches for firefighter 1 is guys searching every square inch. They pat every little nook and cranny. I try to impress that when searching the key is to sweep. By kicking a leg or an arm under a bed you can hit most of it with one try. Their is no need to search behind every bed post. you are looking for bodies not pencils

[owenscott]

RFD21C thats why our instructors would never ask us to search for bottle caps .. because that what we would do in a real fire .... you looking to save kids/adults not bottle caps.

[RFD21C]

owen- i hear you that drives me nuts, to see people do that. you are not lookig for a contact that you lost. sweep with you limbs.

[basic1]

bradroger07,

Do a Firehouse.com search using the words "closet found". There are several pages of articles referencing both children and adults found in closets at structure fires. Keep up the good work - Never stop learning.

[nameless]

i haven't personally been to a fire where its happened, but I do know of several instances of children being found under a pile of clothes in my area.

A lot of older houses with livable attics have small knee walls that are accessible through small doors (maybe only 2' by 2') so you can store stuff back there. I've seen a couple littered with toys that looked like the kids were using it as a little hangout. Those would be difficult to search, you'd either have to give it a quick glance with the TIC or punch through the wall every few feet to let you sweep an area

[PaladinKnight]

I'll give my two cents.

I worked a fire where 2 kids died in the room where the fire started. They had crawled under the coffee table and basically were in plain site and located quite quickly. But given the situation, they had no chance.

I worked a fire that was quite the opposite. The fire started in the kitchen. One child (6yo) ran out of the Mobile Home. Two children (4yo/3yo) ran to a bedroom and crawled under the parent's bed. The child that ran out alerted a neighbor about the fire. By the time the first units arrived, the roof and the front wall had collapsed. Kids did not survive.

These situations did not present crews a chance to save lives. But the searches nevertheless were performed.

Another fire that I worked presented a different situation. Parents insisted two kids were in the house. Search teams had checked the entire house, without locating the children. While hose crews began attacking the fire in the utility room and kitchen, the kids were found, ALIVE, in the car in the garage.

I don't believe in myths. I do believe in facts. You cannot ever predict what a child will do, and each situation is different; each structure is different. If this was easy stuff, we would have no fire deaths and LODDs.

We teach our crews to be "methodical". They must use their best judgement and be prepared to react given the situation. Be swift, but thorough; opposed to fast and lax.

Firefighters cannot try to get into the mind of a child to predict behavior. We do not think or react the same way. So the challenge remains as it has always been. You begin based upon the best information possible, but check everything.

[mikeyboy411]

Originally posted by PaladinKnight

If this was easy stuff, we would have no fire deaths and LODDs.

And Cops could do it..... LMAO