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    Default When, if it is ever, acceptable to.......

    Use "alternative" means to gain information from a person.

    I'm not talking about beating a suspect to gain a confession, but rather using means other then words to gain info that would undoubtedly save lives/property, such as a terrorist with knowledge of an attack, or a suspect hiding a victim.

    Do we need to change the laws to reflect this?
    Is it acceptable?
    Is breaching someones constitutional rights, whether they are actually provided or not, worth the result?
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    If a terrorist gets his feelings hurt during interrogation, or frankly any other part of him hurt, I don't care. He should have thought about that before he decided to be a terrorist. Boo hoo.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    If a terrorist gets his feelings hurt during interrogation, or frankly any other part of him hurt, I don't care. He should have thought about that before he decided to be a terrorist. Boo hoo.
    And he is only a terrorist because we think he is a terrorist. We don't know that he has information, we only think he does. And we will torture him until he tells us anything to get us to stop. "I don't know" becomes "I will make anything up to get them to stop". Torture taints all evidence and makes it worthless.

    You will confess to being a terrorist if enough torture is applied to you. The terrorist are using the same justifications for their actions as you.

    And call me a lib idiot, cause I know you will.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 11-15-2009 at 03:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    And he is only a terrorist because we think he is a terrorist. We don't know that he has information, we only think he does. And we will torture him until he tells us anything to get us to stop. "I don't know" becomes "I will make anything up to get them to stop". Torture taints all evidence and makes it worthless.

    You will confess to being a terrorist if enough torture is applied to you. The terrorist are using the same justifications for their actions as you.

    And call me a lib idiot, cause I know you will.
    I won't call you a lib idiot. I will call you someone who is trying to attract attention to yourself.
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    There is never a reason for a civilized society to torture anyone.

    There may be many reasons for a civilized society to use coercive interrogation to extract information from a subject.

    The problem today, is that the liberal, panty-waist cowards cannot tell the difference between torture and coercive interrogation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I won't call you a lib idiot. I will call you someone who is trying to attract attention to yourself.
    Isn't that the same thing??
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Use "alternative" means to gain information from a person.

    I'm not talking about beating a suspect to gain a confession, but rather using means other then words to gain info that would undoubtedly save lives/property, such as a terrorist with knowledge of an attack, or a suspect hiding a victim.

    Do we need to change the laws to reflect this?
    Is it acceptable?
    Is breaching someones constitutional rights, whether they are actually provided or not, worth the result?
    Interesting question. In my opinion, true torture is easy - not a good idea simply because the information is not reliable.

    Now, for using techniques outside the constition. Hell yes. We guarentee miranda/constitutional rights to our citizens. We offer them to foriegn nationals which normally is the right thing to do. There is a difference in guarenteeing and offering.

    There are times and places where that simply is not a good idea. A soldier conducting an interrogation on the battlefield for instance. Advising him he can stop talking until he has an attorney isn't a good idea. Giving them full access to our civilian courts isn't a good idea.

    Generally speaking, for common crimes, its prudent policy to follow our constitution and the general laws of our land (and this is done and works). Once you hit war crimes, military POW's, individuals without nations (think some of our guests at gitmo) and perpetrators of acts of war then you need to start applying different standards. Unfortuneately, those standards are not well defined yet for the non-military POW's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I won't call you a lib idiot. I will call you someone who is trying to attract attention to yourself.
    And your numerous "Obama will never last more than one term" threads are so subtle .

    So you are always right, and by not agreeing with you I'm just drawing attention to myself, figures.

    The problem today, is that the liberal, panty-waist cowards cannot tell the difference between torture and coercive interrogation.
    We have tried and sentenced other countries for using the same techniques on our soldiers. If it's torture when it's done to us, then it's torture when we do it to others. But I guess conservatives don't see it that way.

    Waterboarding US soldiers is apples, waterboarding Terrorists is oranges.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    And your numerous "Obama will never last more than one term" threads are so subtle
    They are not supposed to be subtle.

    So you are always right
    Agreed.

    by not agreeing with you I'm just drawing attention to myself
    I never said that. Your dope-smoking, 60's flower child agenda is your attempt to draw attention to yourself.

    We have tried and sentenced other countries for using the same techniques on our soldiers. If it's torture when it's done to us, then it's torture when we do it to others. But I guess conservatives don't see it that way.
    Do you believe that our soldiers are terrorists?

    And,oh yeah. Waterboarding is not torture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    We have tried and sentenced other countries for using the same techniques on our soldiers. If it's torture when it's done to us, then it's torture when we do it to others. But I guess conservatives don't see it that way.

    Waterboarding US soldiers is apples, waterboarding Terrorists is oranges.
    There's a difference. We're right, they're wrong.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I never said that. Your dope-smoking, 60's flower child agenda is your attempt to draw attention to yourself.
    Ah, Hippies...I knew there had to be a deep underlying reason for your neurosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Ah, Hippies...I knew there had to be a deep underlying reason for your neurosis.
    How about answering the REAL questionin my post. Do you consider our soldiers terrorists?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Water boarding and such are probably not such a good idea. I would say that the use of truth serums and lie detectors would be OK.

    Using methods of torture to gain information has to be used with the realization that the information may not be reliable. That said if I use coercive techniques to get information from three different people and all three give the same information it is probably reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    How about answering the REAL questionin my post. Do you consider our soldiers terrorists?
    No, and please tell me where in this quote I said that our soldiers are terrorists:

    We have tried and sentenced other countries for using the same techniques on our soldiers. If it's torture when it's done to us, then it's torture when we do it to others. But I guess conservatives don't see it that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    No, and please tell me where in this quote I said that our soldiers are terrorists:
    I don't recall any trials after Viet Nam

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I don't recall any trials after Viet Nam
    It was before
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Water boarding and such are probably not such a good idea. I would say that the use of truth serums and lie detectors would be OK.

    Using methods of torture to gain information has to be used with the realization that the information may not be reliable. That said if I use coercive techniques to get information from three different people and all three give the same information it is probably reliable.
    You'd typically be wrong.

    Interogation by a trained or experienced operator WILL get all the information the subject has. May take awhile. And will be as accurate as the subject's knowledge may be. When subject lies on the questions you know the answers to you punish him. Conditioning to only give truthful answers.

    "truth serums" and lie detectors are a largely dime store novel nonsense and BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    You'd typically be wrong.

    Interogation by a trained or experienced operator WILL get all the information the subject has. May take awhile. And will be as accurate as the subject's knowledge may be. When subject lies on the questions you know the answers to you punish him. Conditioning to only give truthful answers.

    "truth serums" and lie detectors are a largely dime store novel nonsense and BS.
    And if the person really doesn't know anything, but the "trained and experienced" operator keeps on pushing, he will start making up stuff to get the "trained and experienced" operator to stop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    And he is only a terrorist because we think he is a terrorist. We don't know that he has information, we only think he does. And we will torture him until he tells us anything to get us to stop. "I don't know" becomes "I will make anything up to get them to stop". Torture taints all evidence and makes it worthless.

    You will confess to being a terrorist if enough torture is applied to you. The terrorist are using the same justifications for their actions as you.

    And call me a lib idiot, cause I know you will.
    Yes you're a classical newage libtard. And it's dopesmoking, magot infested, hippie. Stay in Canada.

    It's not torture unless it causes signficant permentant physical damage. If it breaks and doctor (trained western) can fix it no problem. If the terr has bad dreams, so sad cry me a river. You have no idea about what an interogation even is. The islamist pansies sending their pawns to useless deaths have largely folded at the threat of interogation. Weakling egomaniacs are not warriors.

    Will interrogate until we are satisfied has no more useful info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    And if the person really doesn't know anything, but the "trained and experienced" operator keeps on pushing, he will start making up stuff to get the "trained and experienced" operator to stop.
    Keep talking and proving you're clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Yes you're a classical newage libtard. And it's dopesmoking, magot infested, hippie. Stay in Canada.

    It's not torture unless it causes signficant permentant physical damage. If it breaks and doctor (trained western) can fix it no problem. If the terr has bad dreams, so sad cry me a river. You have no idea about what an interogation even is. The islamist pansies sending their pawns to useless deaths have largely folded at the threat of interogation. Weakling egomaniacs are not warriors.

    Will interrogate until we are satisfied has no more useful info.
    IF we have put people to trial for doing the same thing to us, then it's torture, no matter how many doctors can put him back together.

    And it does not change the fact that people will make up crap just to get you to stop. If you spend enough time with those "trained" professionals, you will admit to being a terrorist too.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 11-16-2009 at 10:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Yes you're a classical newage libtard. And it's dopesmoking, magot infested, hippie. Stay in Canada.

    It's not torture unless it causes signficant permentant physical damage. If it breaks and doctor (trained western) can fix it no problem. If the terr has bad dreams, so sad cry me a river. You have no idea about what an interogation even is. The islamist pansies sending their pawns to useless deaths have largely folded at the threat of interogation. Weakling egomaniacs are not warriors.

    Will interrogate until we are satisfied has no more useful info.
    Lets see, you learned this from reading soldier of fortune or whatever piece of garbage has replaced it. Please o guru of military intelligence, tell us where you have received this mass of medical, psychological and intelligence knowledge. Go back to reading comic books and Mac Bolan paperbacks in your basement flat. BTW, Markus lives in Oklahoma, that is in the USA, but I'd be proud to welcome him here to Alberta. Never mind, go to google earth, you can find it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    And if the person really doesn't know anything, but the "trained and experienced" operator keeps on pushing, he will start making up stuff to get the "trained and experienced" operator to stop.
    I tend to agree with you on this one. It even happens in our own legal system. When an investigator badgers you enough you tend to tell them want they want to hear, especially after 12 hours or so.

    Have you ever heard of Pavlov's Dog????
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 11-16-2009 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I tend to agree with you on this one. It even happens in our own legal system. When an investigator badgers you enough you tend to tell them want they want to hear, especially after 12 hours or so.

    Have you ever heard of Pavlov's Dog????
    I didn't know Detroits center had a dog. Why is that relevant here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    No, and please tell me where in this quote I said that our soldiers are terrorists:
    We have tried and sentenced other countries for using the same techniques on our soldiers.

    This thread is about using coercive interrogation techniques against terrorists. You compare them (terrorists) to our soldiers.

    Your words, not mine.
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