1. #26
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    Lol, Sorry I posted it with my cell phone. I could not spell check it or did i get the chance to read it. I was not talking about FDNY in my disagreement. We could go back and forth all day long, I can see both sides of it.
    Last edited by ETmedic252; 11-19-2009 at 11:21 PM.

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    Emt/Paramedic level to cfr-d level and this city calls this a "promotion"? No different then getting a wake up call so you can make the exam on time. Both these things happened for one reason and one reason only. The Guys who hold grudges have every right to hold them. My personal opinion is that your a scumbag if you use ems as a stepping stone into the FD. Not because your trying to screw out a candidate that took the open competative but because you took a job away from someone who maybe really wants to do ems as either a emt or paramedic. Maybe someone who could have saved many lives in this city. But because of your greed and insecurity may not have that chance. But hey F*ck it you got what you want, right?

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    Ive said it before...

    If you want to do ems, do it 110%
    If you want to be a fireman, same thing.
    If you want to dig holes, dont stop until youve seen a chinese sunset.

    Whatever job youre after, give it your all and you wont have a problem.

    (This assumes youre not an incompetent sack of crap, whos "all" might be nauseatingly insufficient. But thats unlikely, being such a narrow section of the population, its hardly worth typing out this qualifying disclaimer.)

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkylinePCG View Post
    Ive said it before...

    If you want to do ems, do it 110%
    If you want to be a fireman, same thing.
    If you want to dig holes, dont stop until youve seen a chinese sunset.

    Whatever job youre after, give it your all and you wont have a problem.

    (This assumes youre not an incompetent sack of crap, whos "all" might be nauseatingly insufficient. But thats unlikely, being such a narrow section of the population, its hardly worth typing out this qualifying disclaimer.)
    This is too true. Too many mistakes are made by EMT's and Paramedics who are doing this career just to get into the Fire Department.

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    Certs? REALLY? It only takes a 5 minute look at Scarecrow and LAfire to understand why certs mean jack sh*t....man you guys are really digging lol.....and considering its obvious none of you even understand why the backdoor even exists, it makes it even more hysterical that you are defending it. The back door wasnt created so people had a foot into the dept, as much as you guys want to hope.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but these EMT's who backdoor their way into the job still have to go to the Rock, and graduate before they are put on the line. Therefore they are the same as every other firefighter on the job, no? Because if they weren't qualified, then the instructors at the Rock wouldn't have passed them, right? So how are these firefighters different than anyone else? They didn't do anything wrong. Taking the open competitive exam is one option to getting appointed, taking the promotional from EMT or Cop to FF is another. You may not like the politics of the system, but don't take it out on someone who uses an option that is available to ANYONE. I am not saying that I agree with the system, but it's there, and if someone uses it, who am I or anyone else to blame him/her for using it. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFDLadder1 View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but these EMT's who backdoor their way into the job still have to go to the Rock, and graduate before they are put on the line. Therefore they are the same as every other firefighter on the job, no? Because if they weren't qualified, then the instructors at the Rock wouldn't have passed them, right? So how are these firefighters different than anyone else? They didn't do anything wrong. Taking the open competitive exam is one option to getting appointed, taking the promotional from EMT or Cop to FF is another. You may not like the politics of the system, but don't take it out on someone who uses an option that is available to ANYONE. I am not saying that I agree with the system, but it's there, and if someone uses it, who am I or anyone else to blame him/her for using it. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
    You've convinced me, with these anecdotes and otherwise first time arguments that have never been used or debunked before on this forum. I must be wrong.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    When one of you knowingly takes your kid to a doctor who had to go to Granada to get his medical degree, I'll start to listen.

    Until then, I'll choose to stick with the best qualified people.

    You wouldn't put your childs life in the hands of somebody who snuck into the field, don't ask us to.

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    Wow... I had figured that this topic had largely burned itself out and this thread wouldn't grow very quickly.
    I didn't intend to continue posting in here since it's clear that everyone has their opinions and there isn't much hope of changing them, whichever side someone lies on. But since I started the topic I think I should try to weigh in again.
    I personally have considered my options, done some more investigating and researching, and I've decided that the best path for me to follow would be to enlist in the Navy and get into Damage Control rate or something similar. I'm confident in my abilities and from what I've read on this forum, I know that if I do my best I'll be able to get into the department on an Open Competitive list. I hope that will at least restore some of my credit on this forum for now, while helping to establish myself as the best candidate in the future.

    On that note, I think it's clear that the majority of people either dislike the way the system is right now or outright hate it, with only a minority thinking that it's a perfectly acceptable system. Rather than trying to continue the debate from one standpoint or another, I propose that some of you come up with what would be an acceptable solution.
    I still think that someone that has put in the time on EMS should get some sort of plus, so I would suggest that someone who has worked as an EMT on any level, be it with the city or with a hospital or whatever else, for a minimum of (1 or 2, I'm still undecided on that) years, should just get a +5 on the written test much the same as a resident or military veteran. I think that takes away the extreme benefit that they currently receive, while still giving someone reason to consider a short term job in the medical field.

    WD6956 used an example earlier comparing two candidates that I think was somewhat unfair:
    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    How about this scenario. You are looking to hire a Firefighter for your medium sized suburban town in New England. You have no heavy industry, no ocean, no mountains, no caves and the tallest buildings you cover are 5 stories. Your FD does not do ANY EMS calls. You have a separate Ambulance corps for that. Here are your two candidates.

    Both are 30 years old and can easily pass the physical.

    Candidate 1 has 10 years with the FDNY in a busy Truck Company and has all the required Certs FDNY required and nothing more. Perfect record.

    Candidate 2 has 10 years in a volunteer fire company in a small town that sees little action. A handful of small fires a year. BUT he has a ton of EMS certs, high angle rescue, open water rescue, etc.

    Candidate 1 may have less certs, but he has FAR more hands on experience in a far more demanding department.
    Candidate 2 has lots of certs, but has had little chance to use them and most of the certs he has would never be used in your department.

    Who in your eyes could bring more to your department?

    It's just how i look at things. If you see things differently, that is fine.
    Now, that's a fantastic point given his scenario, but the thing is, we aren't talking about a hypothetical small new england town, we're talking about the FDNY. Which very much does handle medical calls. So for the FDNY, a more realistic scenario would be:
    Both candidates scored the same or very nearly the same on the physical and written tests, and both come with great references from their respective supervisors. However;
    Candidate 1 - Has his EMT-B and has worked for 2 years as an EMT for an inner city hospital.
    Candidate 2 - Has been working the sales counter at a large retail store eg. Gap or JC Penney for the last 2 years.

    Now who do you choose? For me, and call me crazy, but Candidate 1 is the clear choice for the same reason as WD6956 claimed in his example; hands on experience. This supports my solution to the problem of EMT Promo to FF. It takes into account prior work experience while preventing someone from getting a free ride into the department.

    Thoughts or opinions? Please tell me what you think of mine or present your own way of fixing the problem. But please give up the us vs. them that is currently going on, there's no reason for that, and that's not what I intended to start when I brought up this thread.

    Oh, also - I would appreciate opinions on my choice to join the Navy instead, if you don't even want to bother with the whole EMT promo thing anymore. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by TylerRichardson; 11-21-2009 at 04:07 AM.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerRichardson View Post
    Wow... I had figured that this topic had largely burned itself out and this thread wouldn't grow very quickly.
    I didn't intend to continue posting in here since it's clear that everyone has their opinions and there isn't much hope of changing them, whichever side someone lies on. But since I started the topic I think I should try to weigh in again.
    I personally have considered my options, done some more investigating and researching, and I've decided that the best path for me to follow would be to enlist in the Navy and get into Damage Control rate or something similar. I'm confident in my abilities and from what I've read on this forum, I know that if I do my best I'll be able to get into the department on an Open Competitive list. I hope that will at least restore some of my credit on this forum for now, while helping to establish myself as the best candidate in the future.

    On that note, I think it's clear that the majority of people either dislike the way the system is right now or outright hate it, with only a minority thinking that it's a perfectly acceptable system. Rather than trying to continue the debate from one standpoint or another, I propose that some of you come up with what would be an acceptable solution.
    I still think that someone that has put in the time on EMS should get some sort of plus, so I would suggest that someone who has worked as an EMT on any level, be it with the city or with a hospital or whatever else, for a minimum of (1 or 2, I'm still undecided on that) years, should just get a +5 on the written test much the same as a resident or military veteran. I think that takes away the extreme benefit that they currently receive, while still giving someone reason to consider a short term job in the medical field.

    WD6956 used an example earlier comparing two candidates that I think was somewhat unfair:


    Now, that's a fantastic point given his scenario, but the thing is, we aren't talking about a hypothetical small new england town, we're talking about the FDNY. Which very much does handle medical calls. So for the FDNY, a more realistic scenario would be:
    Both candidates scored the same or very nearly the same on the physical and written tests, and both come with great references from their respective supervisors. However;
    Candidate 1 - Has his EMT-B and has worked for 2 years as an EMT for an inner city hospital.
    Candidate 2 - Has been working the sales counter at a large retail store eg. Gap or JC Penney for the last 2 years.

    Now who do you choose? For me, and call me crazy, but Candidate 1 is the clear choice for the same reason as WD6956 claimed in his example; hands on experience. This supports my solution to the problem of EMT Promo to FF. It takes into account prior work experience while preventing someone from getting a free ride into the department.

    Thoughts or opinions? Please tell me what you think of mine or present your own way of fixing the problem. But please give up the us vs. them that is currently going on, there's no reason for that, and that's not what I intended to start when I brought up this thread.

    Oh, also - I would appreciate opinions on my choice to join the Navy instead, if you don't even want to bother with the whole EMT promo thing anymore. Thanks guys.
    Acceptable solution?? No one on here owes anyone a "acceptable solution" most took the open test and waited for their number to be called, While being screwed over by someone who probably dropped out of the academy because they could not hack it off those so called "promotional" tests.

    Secondly Being an emt-b or paramedic or a gap employee does not matter one bit. when your on that rig (engine) you act NO higher then your training level which is a CFR-d. The training you get at the rock.

  11. #36
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    I'm not a big fan of joining the military just to serve one's own needs.
    Join to serve a greater need. Join to serve something greater than you.

    Don't be dead set on the DC rate. I'm noticing more people coming on here claiming they're going into the Navy as a DC as a stepping stone into a fire department. There are a lot more people who aren't even on these forums who are thinking the same thing. Do you think you'll be one of the chosen few to get it? Get used to the saying "The needs of the Navy". Meaning, nothing is guaranteed to you and everything is all based on where the Navy needs you (even to those that have it in writing).

    There are a lot of different jobs in the Navy and military in general. Join and do something different. Blow scheisse up. Shoot something. For god's sake, don't join to be a DC because you think it's going to help you get the job on the outside.

    Serve the military, not yourself.
    Last edited by ffbam24; 11-21-2009 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffbam24 View Post
    Do you think you'll be one of the chosen few to get it? Get used to the saying "The needs of the Navy". Meaning, nothing is guaranteed to you and everything is all based on where the Navy needs you (even to those that have it in writing).
    I remember when the movie Top Gun came out. The Navy had recruiters in every theater lobby signing guys up to be aviators. 6 months later they were scrubbing barnacles off the hulls of battleships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkylinePCG View Post
    Ive said it before...

    If you want to do ems, do it 110%
    If you want to be a fireman, same thing.
    Are you suggesting that a person can't do both well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brnsknFF View Post
    This is too true. Too many mistakes are made by EMT's and Paramedics who are doing this career just to get into the Fire Department.
    That's a pretty generalized statement. Care to site any of these said "mistakes"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalmB4Storm View Post
    When one of you knowingly takes your kid to a doctor who had to go to Granada to get his medical degree, I'll start to listen.

    Until then, I'll choose to stick with the best qualified people.

    You wouldn't put your childs life in the hands of somebody who snuck into the field, don't ask us to.
    If you truly want the best qualified for the job, then you'll have to throw out residency, military, and legacy points too. Why does one have an advantage for simply living in the city? They are likewise jumping people on the list that scored better. Yet, nobody seems to be too upset about these free points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    neither. .



    but Im still not "assuming" anything.....someone who fails 2 events on a physical and almost fails a 4th grade written exam doesnt deserve to be checking parking meters, let alone being a fireman.
    You're right, neither. Oh and I never accused you of assuming anything. It was Bones that asked the OP why he should get the job over someone who deserved it more. Hence, he was making the assumption that somebody deserved the job more.

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    I have to say that for an 18 year old kid, the OP writes well, and is able to articulate his points better than many older, more experienced posters.

    With that said, I dont understand the folks who are bashing the kid for wanting to put time in as a medic enroute to his goal of working for FDNY. From what I gather, many of you feel that someone taking a civil service test is somehow superior and more job worthy than someone putting in time working for the city in an indisputably important position. Whether you like paramedics or not, a person working as one, especially in a busy system, tends to develop far more people skills, coping abilities, team work skills, the ability to work under pressure, and countless other qualities, than those developed by someone who simply took a generic civil service test.

    I fail to see how working hard, learning alot, contributing to the city, and its community is less in terms of being "deserving" of an FDNY job, than taking a test.

    If anything, guys who are already on FDNY should be happy that paramedics who promote to FF, worked the same streets, have real world work experience, and obviously graduated from the same fire academy as the guys who were able to pass an exam to get hired.

    JMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Certs? REALLY? It only takes a 5 minute look at Scarecrow and LAfire to understand why certs mean jack sh*t....man you guys are really digging lol.....and considering its obvious none of you even understand why the backdoor even exists, it makes it even more hysterical that you are defending it. The back door wasnt created so people had a foot into the dept, as much as you guys want to hope.
    Seriously, why does the backdoor option exist? It's not like the FDNY has a shortage of qualified applicants. Quite the opposite. I would think that FDNY EMS would want to plug that hole to reduce attrition, anyway. Was it a demographic/EEO thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    Yes, but if a departments guidelines are that everyone has to have the training anyhow and includes it in thier academy, you can see why to some departments do not really care about those certs.
    It's not the certs that are valuable. It's the experience. EMS and Fire are both hands on learning. There are many things you can learn in the classroom, but nothing replaces experience. This is where having an EMS background would benefit someone "promoting" to the FDNY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic515 View Post
    That's a pretty generalized statement. Care to site any of these said "mistakes"?
    That's different thread, so I'd rather not.

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    From what I'm gathering, guys dislike the FF promotion because they see it as the easy road, where everybody else took the hard road. I can certainly understand why it's so controversial. However, I also understand why some would find this option appealing. Every time the FDNY tests they get tens of thousands of applicants and the process is so competitive that it's amost impossible to make yourself stand out among so many thousands of others, especially in a department that does not value EMS certs nearly as much as other departments. I personally feel that when a person gets hired on to the FDNY, beating out thousands of other applicants, it has as much to do with luck as it does qualification, if not more so. Maybe the guy who takes the promotional exam really wants to be a firefighter, and is as qualified as the guy who got hired on the civil service test, but just wasn't as lucky. Maybe he sees this as nothing more than a different option. Maybe he pulled his weight in the Academy. Just because you got hired from the Civil Service test doesn't automatically mean you'll smoke the academy, just like it doesn't mean the guy who took the promotional is gonna suck. It's just a different way of getting there. As it's said in the fire service, there is always more than one way of doing something and this is no exception. Now I don't know the ins and outs of this promotional exam but when all is said and done, everybody has to pass the same academy and pull their weight on the street because that's where it counts. Just my opinion.
    Last edited by merchan5967; 11-21-2009 at 03:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic515 View Post
    If you truly want the best qualified for the job, then you'll have to throw out residency, military, and legacy points too. Why does one have an advantage for simply living in the city? They are likewise jumping people on the list that scored better. Yet, nobody seems to be too upset about these free points.

    Residency credit is garbage and falsified by over half the people who claim it.

    Most Vets don't use their points up-front and hang on to them until a promotional exam.

    As for legacy credit, well, if you want to call them "free points" I'm sure you could find more than a few guys who would gladly give them back if they got their fathers back in return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic515 View Post
    Are you suggesting that a person can't do both well?
    Im not "suggesting" anything. You cant do both, at all. Not working for NYC.

    If you were interested in holding a second job, with a hospital providing a subsidy EMS service to the city's 911 system, then go for it; youve found your sidejob.

    Quote Originally Posted by edpmedic View Post
    Seriously, why does the backdoor option exist? It's not like the FDNY has a shortage of qualified applicants. Quite the opposite. I would think that FDNY EMS would want to plug that hole to reduce attrition, anyway. Was it a demographic/EEO thing?
    The EMS union does want that hole plugged. Its contributes to a transient workforce that really screws the people trying to make a career out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic515 View Post
    You're right, neither. Oh and I never accused you of assuming anything. It was Bones that asked the OP why he should get the job over someone who deserved it more. Hence, he was making the assumption that somebody deserved the job more.
    No. I said no one deserves a shorter way in. Everyone should take the same steps.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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